Andy Parsons, chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, openly stated that we don’t have to expect Blu-ray prices to go down any time soon. Parsons said this at the DisplaySearch/NPD HDTV conference in Los Angeles.
"There’s not enough market to lower the price," Parsons told PC World. This means that Parsons believes that the current demand for the technology is too low and the public isn’t aware enough.
Many believe that now is the time for Blu-ray to drop the prices since online downloads and Video on Demand (VoD) are competitors that can overrun the format.
Parsons says consumer awareness and eventually demand are key factors before selling any Blu-ray products at a lower price. But what about downloads and VoD? Can physical media and electronic downloads coexist or will consumers pick a side?
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At 20th Century Fox they believe coexistence is the way, it’s even a mistake to believe one of the two will win. "It’s a mistake to think it’s either a physical or an electronic business," Danny Kaye, vice president of research and technology strategy at 20th Century Fox, told CNET.
Figures show that the majority of the customers spend their money on physical movies, instead of digital downloads. Fifty-two percent of the HDTV owners buy movies or TV shows on DVD, while 6% downloads.
Now that Parsons said he isn’t planning to drop Blu-ray prices anytime soon, the question is whether consumer demand will grow if the prices stay high. Is just being aware enough for a consumer to choose Blu-ray?
With 52% of the consumers buying physical DVDs, and Blu-ray trying its best to take a piece of that pie, many will say prices will have to go down. What do you expect? Will Parsons soon change his strategy, or is he right? Just being aware is enough for us to buy a Blu-ray player.
63 Comments
If prices remain high, will demand grow? Hmmm.... let's think about this for awhile. I wonder what the answer could be. On one side of the coin, I do have too much money in my bank account and Sony says they'll help me out with that if I buy their junk. On the other side, the economy is going down the toilet and I don't know if I'll have a job tomorrow. I may be eating beans at the local mission next month. Hey, let's spin the "Wheel of Stupidity" and see what happens.
This is exactly what I hate when there is no competition. When HD-DVD was there Sony, and the BD format people, were doing all it could to want you to go Hidif, now they have won its like they couldn't really care less.
When its a choice of buying all these films on HD-DVD for 99p from HMV, or £15-£20 for the same transfer of the same film only an idiot would bow down to the winning format. (Note before you look the 99p was an offer HMV had on last week thats now ended).
When its a choice of buying all these films on HD-DVD for 99p from HMV, or £15-£20 for the same transfer of the same film only an idiot would bow down to the winning format. (Note before you look the 99p was an offer HMV had on last week thats now ended).
What have they really won? With high prices for players and movies, most consumers are going to completely ignore blu-ray. They're just not interested. Toshiba may have the right strategy after all if the blu camp doesn't lower prices....release a kick ass upscaling dvd player at a decent price. The average consumers I talk to feel fine with upscaling their existing library and see no reason to spend a fortune to upgrade to blu. As VOD and download services catch up to the quality of blu-ray, the arrogance in the "we don't need to lower prices" statement will come back to haunt them. Just as it did for the initial launch of the PS3.
I love it. "There's not enough market to lower the price," Dumbass. The market would grow faster if the price was lower. And only a moron bases price on market share. Base it on cost of production plus a profit margin. And don't tell me they can't up production until demand rises, that's BS. If they want the per unit cost to go down, MAKE MORE UNITS. Corporate idiots. People ARE buying HD tv sets, and it's a natural to get a DVD palyer to match the new tv. So any production increases they make to get the costs down to under $200 would be covered by the new sales. But I guess they're just to scared to risk the investment, so they'll lose all they've invested so far. Brilliant. I certainly won't have any simpathy for them when this format dies from stupidity. Get it over with, die and we can move on to the next big thing.
Lower price increases demand, that first year economics! You have to find the sweet spot in price where priceXquantity gets you the most profit. If you lower the price but it has an exponential increase in quantity sold, you actually make more selling for less.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 18 Sep 08 18:28
Well, speaking for the older generation that would like to be into new technology we would probably be ready to buy blu ray however, on a fixed income and with the escalation of the economy decline I have to worry about paying the rent and eating before I go and spend tons of money in order to have blu ray. I just had to buy a new cell phone and I bought one with blu ray technology because of the new blu ray technology one becasue TV is changing to digital and I figure phones are going in that direction also. I am on a very fix income and can't afford the blu ray video market. I bought a TracFone pay as you go becasue, I don't chit chat on my cell. I don't even give out the number. I is only for if I expect an important call while out or need to call for dirctions etc since pay phones are disapearing and businesses aren't happy to allow you to make a phone call even though it is local. I simply fwd my land line to the cell when I leave home and if the power goes out my broadband phone company, Vonage, will automatically fwd my calls to my cell. I did not however, buy the blu ray star trek ear piece. I find it dumb unless you are so connected to the rest of the world you have to talk to everyone no matter what you are doing or where you are. I am fine with the regular dvd disc largely due to the fact that even HD tv is more than I can afford. I do intend on buying one when someone generously gifts me the cash to buy one. All that to say------even mayo and mustard won't help make the higher prices of blu ray go down any easier.
"Lower price increases demand"
Does it really? That might have been Economics 101 where you come from but that is not factual. Demand is not directly related to price. Think about that. The US VP Barbie glasses are in great demand not because the japanese company dropped the price but because Barbie (Palin) is wearing them.
Does it really? That might have been Economics 101 where you come from but that is not factual. Demand is not directly related to price. Think about that. The US VP Barbie glasses are in great demand not because the japanese company dropped the price but because Barbie (Palin) is wearing them.
@ hillguy
"I just had to buy a new cell phone and I bought one with blu ray technology / did not however, buy the blu ray star trek ear piece."
Oh my God. Dude, you bought Bluetooth technology, not Blu-ray.
"I just had to buy a new cell phone and I bought one with blu ray technology / did not however, buy the blu ray star trek ear piece."
Oh my God. Dude, you bought Bluetooth technology, not Blu-ray.
Andy is talking about economy of scale and we are not there yet. We made that mistake with DVD. The Taiwanese are still in the red from that economic stupidity. They bet on that demand thing.
Remember economics is irational. I still remember the story about the dutch bulb speculation in the 1600's or for that matter what we are seeing in the US Wallstreet. Completly irational.
Remember economics is irational. I still remember the story about the dutch bulb speculation in the 1600's or for that matter what we are seeing in the US Wallstreet. Completly irational.
Before this gets too far out of hand with unnecessary name-calling, I'd like to clarify what I actually said at the conference. My comments were in response to a question about when prices will come down on Blu-ray players, suggesting that they are too high relative to DVD. My response was that DVD players did not start at $49 -- they were relatively expensive for quite some time after that format launched in 1997. While everyone likes low prices, hardware manufacturers must first achieve sufficient sales volume to justify a lower price point if we are to make any money. One should not simply lower prices without a growing market demand, which must be developed over time. I did NOT say that "there is not enough market to lower prices" -- in fact, I specifically referred to a brand name player on Amazon.com for $220 as a clear indication that prices are coming down.
My whole point was that in a healthy market, everyone is rewarded with lower prices because of high market demand coupled with manufacturing economies of scale. This simply takes time. In my opinion, prematurely lowering prices won't grow the market in a constructive way.
As for subsequent comments about competition, please realize that every CE company competes with others in the same Blu-ray business. The premise that HD DVD's departure has somehow stopped competition in the market ignores the fact that every single company is trying to attract the same consumers.
-- Andy Parsons
My whole point was that in a healthy market, everyone is rewarded with lower prices because of high market demand coupled with manufacturing economies of scale. This simply takes time. In my opinion, prematurely lowering prices won't grow the market in a constructive way.
As for subsequent comments about competition, please realize that every CE company competes with others in the same Blu-ray business. The premise that HD DVD's departure has somehow stopped competition in the market ignores the fact that every single company is trying to attract the same consumers.
-- Andy Parsons
@ Andy
"In my opinion, prematurely lowering prices won't grow the market in a constructive way."
I see your point, but there is simply no way for the studios to justify Blu-ray versions of movies in stores at the $30-$40 range. None. We're getting ripped off. Period. When DVD players first came out they were $1,000. Blu-ray player prices are about $300-$500. Fine, I can live with that. Right now at FutureShop.ca they're selling The Untouchables for $26.99 on Blu-ray. DVD version is $9.99. This sort of gouging is unacceptable.
"In my opinion, prematurely lowering prices won't grow the market in a constructive way."
I see your point, but there is simply no way for the studios to justify Blu-ray versions of movies in stores at the $30-$40 range. None. We're getting ripped off. Period. When DVD players first came out they were $1,000. Blu-ray player prices are about $300-$500. Fine, I can live with that. Right now at FutureShop.ca they're selling The Untouchables for $26.99 on Blu-ray. DVD version is $9.99. This sort of gouging is unacceptable.
I've already seen prices of Blu-ray Disc movies titles go down significantly. It used to be that you couldn't get a BD movie for less than $20, with the average price around $30. Now I see that Bestbuy has many titles on sale for $15 and there are many deals available online. Of course, new release Blu-ray Disc title prices are still a bit high, so it would be nice if those prices came down a bit.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 18 Sep 08 20:59
Players are expensive. That is acceptable. The new release discs being expensive is Unacceptable. It's nothing more than a rip off. BR movies should be $18, and while were at it, new release DVD's should be $12. These guys deserve all the pirating they get.
"BR movies should be $18,"
Well, don't forget all the folks besides the studios that it takes to cripple a BR movie and of course Sony needs a cut for the DRM etc - we get to pay for all of this to protect them from "criminals".
Well, don't forget all the folks besides the studios that it takes to cripple a BR movie and of course Sony needs a cut for the DRM etc - we get to pay for all of this to protect them from "criminals".
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 18 Sep 08 23:35
Atta boy Dukester.......... I think you should be running for Prime Minister instead of the various boobs that are
@ witchdoctor6969
Thanks. You're right about the election. Dion will put the country down the toilet. Harper is a tool of the US. Not much of a choice, really.
Thanks. You're right about the election. Dion will put the country down the toilet. Harper is a tool of the US. Not much of a choice, really.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 19 Sep 08 02:37
Dion Carbon Tax aka ( European Emissons Tax) will make sure morons wont't be using big ass V8 pickup to get a goddman bag of groceries!!
The emissions tax in europe made the big 3 YES YOUR BIG 3 make cars as low in emssions and fuel efficient as any other japonese automaker or even VW!!! WHY ?? Because European Governments have some friken back bone.. Your ford focus in PORTUGAL has to get 70 MPG or it won't be authoriz for sale on the ROAD!!!!!!! Bring on the emission tax cause my dream is to get these morons with big ass gas hogs off the friken road !!!!!
Drive a V8 well then pay i in your weight muhahahahah SUCKA!!!
The emissions tax in europe made the big 3 YES YOUR BIG 3 make cars as low in emssions and fuel efficient as any other japonese automaker or even VW!!! WHY ?? Because European Governments have some friken back bone.. Your ford focus in PORTUGAL has to get 70 MPG or it won't be authoriz for sale on the ROAD!!!!!!! Bring on the emission tax cause my dream is to get these morons with big ass gas hogs off the friken road !!!!!
Drive a V8 well then pay i in your weight muhahahahah SUCKA!!!
Most of you have it wrong. If you keep prices high, you can suck the money out of the rich people while your product matures. Then when your goal demand drops, you lower the price a little bit at a time so the middle class can get robbed and the rich feel like it is a bargain. The rich start buying even more. Finally the prices drop more, so the low income family's can afford them. The middle and rich are buying your product at mind blowing quantities because they are tickled pink that they can buy 2 for 1 compared to what the prices use to be.
Then the profits start leveling off. Everyone including your great grandma and grandpa has one (or five), movies sells are spiraling downwards. Now what? The manufacturers start a new campaign, and this starts all over again.
There is your lessons on economics. Supply, demand, and speculators.
Next lesson: How to rip off your customers unknown, and have them come back for more
Then the profits start leveling off. Everyone including your great grandma and grandpa has one (or five), movies sells are spiraling downwards. Now what? The manufacturers start a new campaign, and this starts all over again.
There is your lessons on economics. Supply, demand, and speculators.
Next lesson: How to rip off your customers unknown, and have them come back for more
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 19 Sep 08 04:54
Off topic, but Dion has no chance in hell of winning. If he had even an ounce of brains in his head, he would realize that it's not a good idea to be talking about another carbon tax in B.C. when Campbell and his Provincial Liberals already brought one in that pushed gas over $1.50 a litre. He pretty much commited political suicide in B.C. on that one.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 19 Sep 08 08:22
The money payed to movie industry to adopt blu-shi* must be recovered. And guess who will pay ?
I will agree that the prices will say to folks to get it or not. However I remember when DVD was out and those prices were along the same lines as what BR is now as well. I can't say the prices are that bad to be honest as there is still some remade DVD's even remastered DVD's that still cost 20+ when they first come out. To name a few there was Bambi remastered that was 24.99 + tax when it came out you might get lucky now and get it for 18.99 or 19.99. See the price of BR is no different to be honest besides a few more dollars,pounds,euro's whatever the case may be. Also as DVD players and movies in the past it shows that in time they all come down and are very cheap. I will admit that I for one have already started buying BD movies and they are pleasing to see and hear compared to DVD's. Just like anything else new on technology most will reject it but we will all use it later.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 19 Sep 08 15:32
Well poo-ray will not be getting any of my money as I refuse to give money to greedy companies who try to limit my rights to use what I purchsed how I want.
I will more than happy to use DVD's until the next REAL leap in technology/quality comes out on the market at a fair price.
It appears now they got rid of the competitors they are price fixing to rip of the idiots who are silly enough to pay overinflated prices for DRM riddled anti-consumer goods, and that is the other reason I will not buy anti-consumer poo-ray devices.
Ah the good old days when companies provided a product at a fair and reasonable price that you could use how you wished to do so are a extinct species nowadays.
I will more than happy to use DVD's until the next REAL leap in technology/quality comes out on the market at a fair price.
It appears now they got rid of the competitors they are price fixing to rip of the idiots who are silly enough to pay overinflated prices for DRM riddled anti-consumer goods, and that is the other reason I will not buy anti-consumer poo-ray devices.
Ah the good old days when companies provided a product at a fair and reasonable price that you could use how you wished to do so are a extinct species nowadays.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 20 Sep 08 00:04
Andy, thank you for clarifying. And if you are new to CDFreaks, I suggest you visit the forums at I_am_a_spammer.com instead, where you'd be welcomed rather than reviled by the little pirates here.
^What a douche! Run back to your forum where you belong.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 20 Sep 08 04:24
Funny how the substantitive part of my post was deleted, but the invite for him to visit a larger forum was retained. The part of my post that was most meaninful was where I pointed out that Sony did embrace what Andy is saying is not needed. Namely, Sony found that price cutting the Playstation 3 was the best way to drive Playstation 3 sales.
As for the statement that CDFreaks is the home of pirates, everyone knows that is true. That is why copy protection upsets folks so much, because it makes their theft difficult. Hardly news.
As for the statement that CDFreaks is the home of pirates, everyone knows that is true. That is why copy protection upsets folks so much, because it makes their theft difficult. Hardly news.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 20 Sep 08 14:30
(guest Will said)
And the more PS3 sold the more money Sony lost. That does not exactly make economic sense. 
(guest Will said)
And who appointed you as judge and jury and able to speak for "everyone", you bumptious little brat.
Quote:
| Namely, Sony found that price cutting the Playstation 3 was the best way to drive Playstation 3 sales. |
(guest Will said)
Quote:
| As for the statement that CDFreaks is the home of pirates, everyone knows that is true. That is why copy protection upsets folks so much, because it makes their theft difficult. Hardly news. |
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 20 Sep 08 15:26
I have been noticing a lot more movies on Amazon.com that are starting at $20 and it seems like there are more sales with bigger price cuts at retail outlets (mostly Circuit City and Fry's Electronics though). I mean yeah the regular price is still terrible but if you look for deals you can sure find them. Hell for one of Fry's anniversery sales I got Life of Brian, Oldboy and Dogma for $11 each.
With the economy going to crap here in the US, I expect that our holiday shopping season isn't going to be much help for Bluray. I don't know about you guys, but it is some crazy stuff with our goverment taking on all this commercial debt. Basically, if things don't pan out, the American tax payer is going to be flipping a big bill! I didn't realize we were corporate welfare.
@shaolin - True! I have been pointing this out for months, that Blu-ray is in the wrong time slot. This is a luxury people can definately live without, except for a VERY niche market. But only this past 2 weeks have we seen just how bad it really is, much worse than I could have even imagined. The US has become a welfare nation for the rich.
BTW- this is a global ecopnomy and when the US falls look out for the rest to follow. I guess we will get to see how supply and demand works this holiday season when no one is purchasing high dollar electronic items. Perhaps Blu-ray will drop to 15 dollars a disc and a player will be 99 dollars. I could see companies fire selling this stuff then dropping Blu-ray all together- it's insane to have two optical formats at the moment when the price disparity is so great. Couple that with the investment in equipment to use it- and you have a real flop on your hands!
BTW- this is a global ecopnomy and when the US falls look out for the rest to follow. I guess we will get to see how supply and demand works this holiday season when no one is purchasing high dollar electronic items. Perhaps Blu-ray will drop to 15 dollars a disc and a player will be 99 dollars. I could see companies fire selling this stuff then dropping Blu-ray all together- it's insane to have two optical formats at the moment when the price disparity is so great. Couple that with the investment in equipment to use it- and you have a real flop on your hands!
@Crabbyappleton
You are exactly correct in that what happens to the US, it happens to everyone else. What concerns me even more, is that these so called "economic experts" are heralding this move by the goverment. I just have to say, if our economy is so robust from what some have said after the 9/11 attacks, why do we need to bail out idiots for doing bad business? Sorry to go off on a tangent but this is some serious stuff. Couple this with high fuel prices and it just doesn't look good for anything including Bluray. I am already pinching the penny here and there. I am going to cancel my cable and internet (however, I can pick up my neighbors for free
), and have even cancelled my cell phone. When you have two cars, a family to feed, going to school full time and it cost $50+ to fill up each of those two cars, you have to do something. No, there definitely won't be any Bluray for me anytime soon. For others that can afford it, good for you, I am sorry I don't have a disposable income like yours.
You are exactly correct in that what happens to the US, it happens to everyone else. What concerns me even more, is that these so called "economic experts" are heralding this move by the goverment. I just have to say, if our economy is so robust from what some have said after the 9/11 attacks, why do we need to bail out idiots for doing bad business? Sorry to go off on a tangent but this is some serious stuff. Couple this with high fuel prices and it just doesn't look good for anything including Bluray. I am already pinching the penny here and there. I am going to cancel my cable and internet (however, I can pick up my neighbors for free
), and have even cancelled my cell phone. When you have two cars, a family to feed, going to school full time and it cost $50+ to fill up each of those two cars, you have to do something. No, there definitely won't be any Bluray for me anytime soon. For others that can afford it, good for you, I am sorry I don't have a disposable income like yours. 
I have to wonder how much those who hate blu ray because of the DRM would still hate blu ray if DVD copy protection had never been broken and we never got accustomed to being able to easily back-up DVDs.
When DVD's came around, most people were certainly not accustomed to making backups of VHS movies. This is something we got used with DVD thanks to how easily it could be done. We were not all screaming foul at DVD when we could not copy DVDs for several early years of its existence.
I think many forget that DVD is DRM'd for copy protection but it happens to have been cracked. But those "greedy corporations" still put that protection on DVDs. They are still trying to prevent "fair use" or "illegal copying". So why the love for DVD and hatred for BR when both have DRM for the same reason, to prevent copying ?!
When DVD's came around, most people were certainly not accustomed to making backups of VHS movies. This is something we got used with DVD thanks to how easily it could be done. We were not all screaming foul at DVD when we could not copy DVDs for several early years of its existence.
I think many forget that DVD is DRM'd for copy protection but it happens to have been cracked. But those "greedy corporations" still put that protection on DVDs. They are still trying to prevent "fair use" or "illegal copying". So why the love for DVD and hatred for BR when both have DRM for the same reason, to prevent copying ?!
"...if DVD copy-protection had never been broken..." is a kind of chicken-or-egg question.
If there was nobody smart enough to break DVD copy protection, there would not have been anyone smart enough to invent DVDs and their DRM in the first place.
If there was nobody smart enough to break DVD copy protection, there would not have been anyone smart enough to invent DVDs and their DRM in the first place.
@ ivid
DRM isn't the only reason I hate Blu-ray. Okay, here we go again...
1) More DRM than HD DVD. What's the point? You're just hurting your customers. All DRM gets cracked. It was overkill and completely unnecessary.
2) Discs are too expensive. At least HD DVDs could be manufactured on existing production lines.
3) Blu-ray = $ony. Corporate greed and stupidity at its finest.
4) Blu-ray should have been for data backup only and HD DVD the next DVD. Nobody needed a format war. Now we all lose.
5) The economy is officially in the pooper. We'll just stick with DVD. Thanks for playing, Blu-ray.
DRM isn't the only reason I hate Blu-ray. Okay, here we go again...
1) More DRM than HD DVD. What's the point? You're just hurting your customers. All DRM gets cracked. It was overkill and completely unnecessary.
2) Discs are too expensive. At least HD DVDs could be manufactured on existing production lines.
3) Blu-ray = $ony. Corporate greed and stupidity at its finest.
4) Blu-ray should have been for data backup only and HD DVD the next DVD. Nobody needed a format war. Now we all lose.
5) The economy is officially in the pooper. We'll just stick with DVD. Thanks for playing, Blu-ray.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 21 Sep 08 01:04
Duke
1. This is invalid since you said you were going to name reasons other then drm.
2.Blu Rays were typically more expensive in the market then HD-DVD's so no matter the cost of production the customer doesn't care it's about what the retail price is
3.All companies are greedy that is there whole purpose
4. CDr's sold big because you could copy your music cd collection. Dvdr's became big because you could copy your Movie DVD's. You need to have convience and convergence. If I was to take a HD camcorder and transfer the video onto a Blu Ray disc where would I watch it if no one has a Blu Ray player? This goes for pictures, music and other things.
5. Yeah and flat panels screen companies are going out of buisness and no one is making expensive cell phones or cars or furniture. That is why Pepsi and Wendy's are going out of buisness because everyone is shopping at Aldi's right now. Face it most people who are dead broke would rather have the best then to have generic crap.
1. This is invalid since you said you were going to name reasons other then drm.
2.Blu Rays were typically more expensive in the market then HD-DVD's so no matter the cost of production the customer doesn't care it's about what the retail price is
3.All companies are greedy that is there whole purpose
4. CDr's sold big because you could copy your music cd collection. Dvdr's became big because you could copy your Movie DVD's. You need to have convience and convergence. If I was to take a HD camcorder and transfer the video onto a Blu Ray disc where would I watch it if no one has a Blu Ray player? This goes for pictures, music and other things.
5. Yeah and flat panels screen companies are going out of buisness and no one is making expensive cell phones or cars or furniture. That is why Pepsi and Wendy's are going out of buisness because everyone is shopping at Aldi's right now. Face it most people who are dead broke would rather have the best then to have generic crap.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 21 Sep 08 01:08
w
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 21 Sep 08 02:38
EDIT:
2. Blu Rays were typically LESS expensive in the market than HD-DVD's so no matter the cost of production the customer doesn't care it's about what the retail price is.
2. Blu Rays were typically LESS expensive in the market than HD-DVD's so no matter the cost of production the customer doesn't care it's about what the retail price is.
Hey Duke
Big F'ing deal. DRM is on all freakin formats. VHS, DVD, HD DVD, Tivo...who cares how many levels. The producers will always try to protect their properties. I no longer blame them.
The cost of BR production was not more than HD DVD by the time it went away.
Blu ray does not equal Sony. There are 17 patent holders for blu ray. Sony is just one of them
Blu ray = CyberLink; Dell; Hewlett-Packard; Hitachi; Philips Electronics; LG Electronics; Matsushita Electric Industrial (Panasonic); Mitsubishi Electric; Pioneer; Samsung Electronics; Sanyo Electric; Sharp; Sony; TDK..
I wanted HD DVD to succeed too, but it turned out that Toshiba was another greedy corporation just like everyone else in business these days, and Toshiba took a big "settlement" from Sony and HD DVD folded.
I just want my frickin movies in HD and at best quality. I don't really give a F anymore who gets the royalties.
PS, what's with the line breaks on this site these days ?
Big F'ing deal. DRM is on all freakin formats. VHS, DVD, HD DVD, Tivo...who cares how many levels. The producers will always try to protect their properties. I no longer blame them.
The cost of BR production was not more than HD DVD by the time it went away.
Blu ray does not equal Sony. There are 17 patent holders for blu ray. Sony is just one of them
Blu ray = CyberLink; Dell; Hewlett-Packard; Hitachi; Philips Electronics; LG Electronics; Matsushita Electric Industrial (Panasonic); Mitsubishi Electric; Pioneer; Samsung Electronics; Sanyo Electric; Sharp; Sony; TDK..
I wanted HD DVD to succeed too, but it turned out that Toshiba was another greedy corporation just like everyone else in business these days, and Toshiba took a big "settlement" from Sony and HD DVD folded.
I just want my frickin movies in HD and at best quality. I don't really give a F anymore who gets the royalties.
PS, what's with the line breaks on this site these days ?
@ivid "I have to wonder how much those who hate blu ray because of the DRM would still hate blu ray if DVD copy protection had never been broken and we never got accustomed to being able to easily back-up DVDs."
I'm still pissed about how they added Macrovision to VHS tapes after the Betamax decision! DRM trumps Fair Use has been going on a looooong time now.
I'm still pissed about how they added Macrovision to VHS tapes after the Betamax decision! DRM trumps Fair Use has been going on a looooong time now.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 21 Sep 08 18:31
Then what's the point of being mad if it's so easy to circumvent? I know it shouldn't be there in the first place but when it's easy to dis-arm it sounds like your crying over spilt milk.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 23 Sep 08 01:32
I think one of the big things this article is missing is the fact that Blu-Ray prices are for the most part pretty low. It's one thing to reference the market not being there to lower the price; but when that price is only a couple dollars more than DVD equivalents, it makes a lot more sense. I've actually been working with Warner Home Video on some Blu-Ray projects and with how much they're looking to back and release in the coming months on BR, I think the price and market is fairly solid.
@Blufan
The discs might be seeing a little drop; but still, you need "new" equipment to get the "HD" experience out of Bluray. I mean watching Bluray downscaled is no better than watching DVD. This also includes having to re-buy a movie for which you already had just to watch it at a higher resolution. There is a considerable investment in watching Bluray and there is nothing cheap about it: minimum of $230 player, minimum $1000 for a decent HDTV, HDMI cables which can run $100, $200 for a new TV stand, ect.. That is probably a minimum of $1500 just to watch a movie in a higher resolution than DVD and that is assuming that you have a surround sound system already. But then again, if you want to listen to Dolby and DTS Lossless, you will have to get a new receiver also which could cost $400 if not more. Sorry, I don't call that low. I call that quite an expenditure just to watch a flick!
The discs might be seeing a little drop; but still, you need "new" equipment to get the "HD" experience out of Bluray. I mean watching Bluray downscaled is no better than watching DVD. This also includes having to re-buy a movie for which you already had just to watch it at a higher resolution. There is a considerable investment in watching Bluray and there is nothing cheap about it: minimum of $230 player, minimum $1000 for a decent HDTV, HDMI cables which can run $100, $200 for a new TV stand, ect.. That is probably a minimum of $1500 just to watch a movie in a higher resolution than DVD and that is assuming that you have a surround sound system already. But then again, if you want to listen to Dolby and DTS Lossless, you will have to get a new receiver also which could cost $400 if not more. Sorry, I don't call that low. I call that quite an expenditure just to watch a flick!
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 24 Sep 08 02:30
shaolin007-
Yes cause no one has an HDTV these days. I mean Blu Ray is the only reason to get one right? I can only assume 10 people in the world have one right? Do you have one shaolin007? The question is which came first the egg or the chicken and that fits this situation perfectly. People don't buy a tv to accomidate the Blu Ray player they buy the player to accomidate the tv.
Yes cause no one has an HDTV these days. I mean Blu Ray is the only reason to get one right? I can only assume 10 people in the world have one right? Do you have one shaolin007? The question is which came first the egg or the chicken and that fits this situation perfectly. People don't buy a tv to accomidate the Blu Ray player they buy the player to accomidate the tv.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 24 Sep 08 03:21
Good points psychoace. Most of the tv's you find in places like Best Buy these days are HDTV's anyways. The good ol crt's are being phased out. Also, with the broadcast signal going digital in Feb 2009, there will be more people upgrading their tv's.
@psycho
No I don't have a HDTV set and it appears that 69 million don't either. So in my case and theirs, if I wanted to watch Bluray, guess what? I have to get a new TV! Ok, lets assume you already have a HDTV set. Well, you still need to get a player, the disc, cables, maybe a new receiver ( I know what you would say though, "People don't buy receivers just to hear Bluray man!"), ect.. More money and more money just to watch a flick that you might already have on DVD.
On a final note, yes, CRT's are slowly being phased out but CRT's still have superior black levels than any of the so called digital flat panel tv's out there. CRT's are not bad. They are just bulky. That is the main reason they are being phased out. They still would give you the best picture SD or HD otherwise.
"
No display can produce a true black, so it's important to know just how close it can actually get. CRTs do extremely well, but the flat panels all struggle with black, though they do pretty well with peak brightness, so black level can be a great differentiator. The actual black level produced by a display is almost never reported in manufacturers' spec sheets or published reviews, yet for most applications it's actually much more important than peak white brightness, which seems to get most of the attention. Black-level should be the single most important spec after screen size if you're working in multimedia, imaging, photography, home theater, or in any environment with controlled or subdued lighting. "
"The CRT wins by a huge factor of about 25. It barely produces any detectable light when set to black. The flat panels all produce a noticeable dark-gray glow for black. The CRT's enormous black-level advantage is the major reason why it remains the technology of choice for home theater perfectionists. "
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1734382,00.asp
No I don't have a HDTV set and it appears that 69 million don't either. So in my case and theirs, if I wanted to watch Bluray, guess what? I have to get a new TV! Ok, lets assume you already have a HDTV set. Well, you still need to get a player, the disc, cables, maybe a new receiver ( I know what you would say though, "People don't buy receivers just to hear Bluray man!"), ect.. More money and more money just to watch a flick that you might already have on DVD.
On a final note, yes, CRT's are slowly being phased out but CRT's still have superior black levels than any of the so called digital flat panel tv's out there. CRT's are not bad. They are just bulky. That is the main reason they are being phased out. They still would give you the best picture SD or HD otherwise.
"
No display can produce a true black, so it's important to know just how close it can actually get. CRTs do extremely well, but the flat panels all struggle with black, though they do pretty well with peak brightness, so black level can be a great differentiator. The actual black level produced by a display is almost never reported in manufacturers' spec sheets or published reviews, yet for most applications it's actually much more important than peak white brightness, which seems to get most of the attention. Black-level should be the single most important spec after screen size if you're working in multimedia, imaging, photography, home theater, or in any environment with controlled or subdued lighting. "
"The CRT wins by a huge factor of about 25. It barely produces any detectable light when set to black. The flat panels all produce a noticeable dark-gray glow for black. The CRT's enormous black-level advantage is the major reason why it remains the technology of choice for home theater perfectionists. "
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1734382,00.asp
Let's look at what it takes to watch a movie on BR - let's say $5,000 as a price that would create a kick ass BR system. Then lets say that you and a date went to a movie theater instead and spent 50 bucks. Then, lets say you did this 2 times a month, catching all the good movies would be easy at this rate. You could go to the movies with a friend on a date with popcorn and a coke for 4 years!
You can still watch any movie you want cheaply on DVD with equipment you already have with a very acceptable picture too, at a bargain price.
Blu-ray had best go WAY DOWN this Christmas- or this format is going down instead.
You can still watch any movie you want cheaply on DVD with equipment you already have with a very acceptable picture too, at a bargain price.
Blu-ray had best go WAY DOWN this Christmas- or this format is going down instead.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 24 Sep 08 21:48
@shaolin: the extremetech article is written in 2004! There were no Plasma HDTV 1080p with good black level like today.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 24 Sep 08 21:58
@Crabby: Average joe doesn't care about kickass blu-ray system and $5000 isn't enough for some audio/videophile. For average joe, a $400 Onkyo 7.1 HTIB --home theather in a box-- is good enough. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0016KAU3U
And wait for a $200 blu-ray player in the coming holiday.
And wait for a $200 blu-ray player in the coming holiday.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 24 Sep 08 22:39
If anyone cares, I just got a 46" Panasonic Plasma 1080p for $1050, Onkyo 7.1 HTIB (the same link above) for $225 on sale from fatwallet, and Samsung BD-P1500 for $250. Total $1500 and I can watch blu-ray in full glory in my comfy-ass couch.
@shaolin007:
CRTs slowly being phased out?
Do you live in the moon? J.K. 
Over here, it's almost impossible to find a CRT on sale. On most shops you'll have less than 5% floor space for CRTs (if any!). It's LCD (mostly) and plasma all the way. Everybody and their dog (and cat) buys those things, man!
CRTs slowly being phased out?
Do you live in the moon? J.K. Over here, it's almost impossible to find a CRT on sale. On most shops you'll have less than 5% floor space for CRTs (if any!). It's LCD (mostly) and plasma all the way. Everybody and their dog (and cat) buys those things, man!
Best buy has a sony bluray player for $229.99 Cdn, but I'm still not interested, as my hd tv only does 480P/I, 540P or 1080I
Witchdoctor6969, don't let that be a factor. I have a 768p plasma and watch HD DVDs with the 1080i signal. It is fantastic. I'm getting tired of my limited HD DVD collection though
Holy crap, I just checked that Best Buy price and its not a sale price.
$229, not on sale. Wow.
Its an older model probably being phased out, but still...
Holy crap, I just checked that Best Buy price and its not a sale price.
$229, not on sale. Wow.
Its an older model probably being phased out, but still...
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 24 Sep 08 23:55
ivid, a 1-2 years old 720p plasma from good brand (Pionner, Pannasonic, Samsung) is still better than lower brand 1080p LCD, even playing blu-ray.
I have a 42" Samsung plasma 720p, a friend with 46" Vizio 1080p LCD, he likes my plasma video quality better he said.
I have a 42" Samsung plasma 720p, a friend with 46" Vizio 1080p LCD, he likes my plasma video quality better he said.
@blue
The article might be old but nothing, even modern Plasmas, can't beat CRT's on black. The Pioneer Kuros come close but no cigar sorry.
@johnzap
Yes, I know but I was making a point since some people think the reason why they are being phased out is because they are inferior.
The article might be old but nothing, even modern Plasmas, can't beat CRT's on black. The Pioneer Kuros come close but no cigar sorry.
@johnzap
Yes, I know but I was making a point since some people think the reason why they are being phased out is because they are inferior.
69 million people don't have HDtv's? Out of 300+ million people in the USA that sounds like your in the minority shaloin007. I just think your jealous because you can't get one. Mind you as I have been saying for years now "BLU RAY IS NOT GOING TO BE FOR THE AVERAGE JOE UNTIL IT HIT'S THE $99 PRICE POINT" until then your not the market Blu Ray is pushing it self towards.
Also I must admit I think Blu Ray price is high still because of the econemy. I mean they know not a lot of people are going to buy it so why even try to find a market and lose money when the market is just not there yet.
Also I must admit I think Blu Ray price is high still because of the econemy. I mean they know not a lot of people are going to buy it so why even try to find a market and lose money when the market is just not there yet.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 25 Sep 08 02:37
@psychoace: that is what actually Andy Parsons trying to say if you read again his reaction #10 above. Blu-ray is just not for everyone today and lowering the price will just hurt everyone including the manufacturers (remember HD DVD? Toshiba lowered the price and no CE wanted to join the camp due to lack of profit).
@shaolin: you don't have any HDTV as you said and your statement is based on 2004 article? well I will tell you that I had a 29" Sharp CRT and the black level of my HDTV beat it to death. Maybe the CRT is dying (10 years old) but other factor eq widescreen, color range etc etc. Won't go back to CRT!!
@shaolin: you don't have any HDTV as you said and your statement is based on 2004 article? well I will tell you that I had a 29" Sharp CRT and the black level of my HDTV beat it to death. Maybe the CRT is dying (10 years old) but other factor eq widescreen, color range etc etc. Won't go back to CRT!!
@psychoace
Yep that is it. I am jealous. (rolls eyes) Even if I could afford Bluray, I wouldn't get it. I would probably get a HDTV set and a upscale DVD player. I have too many DVD's to be replacing my library with Bluray.
@blair
Really? You have equipment to measure the black level? I don't think you know what you are talking about.
"black level - The intensity of black in the television picture, frequently referred to as brightness; adjusted to compensate for ambient room light. Black level is set with a TV's brightness control using a PLUGE test pattern. Setting black level correctly is critical to overall picture quality, particularly the ability to see detail in dimly lit scenes of a movie. The term also refers to the ability of a display to produce an inky, deep black, which is often a problem in fixed-pixel displays."
"fixed-pixel display - Digital televisions that use discrete pixels to create a picture image, such as plasma, LCD, DLP, LCoS, or any non-CRT display device. In the case of DLP, for instance, each pixel is represented by one of the hundreds of thousands of tiny mirrors mounted on a DLP chip. "
Yep that is it. I am jealous. (rolls eyes) Even if I could afford Bluray, I wouldn't get it. I would probably get a HDTV set and a upscale DVD player. I have too many DVD's to be replacing my library with Bluray.
@blair
Really? You have equipment to measure the black level? I don't think you know what you are talking about.
"black level - The intensity of black in the television picture, frequently referred to as brightness; adjusted to compensate for ambient room light. Black level is set with a TV's brightness control using a PLUGE test pattern. Setting black level correctly is critical to overall picture quality, particularly the ability to see detail in dimly lit scenes of a movie. The term also refers to the ability of a display to produce an inky, deep black, which is often a problem in fixed-pixel displays."
"fixed-pixel display - Digital televisions that use discrete pixels to create a picture image, such as plasma, LCD, DLP, LCoS, or any non-CRT display device. In the case of DLP, for instance, each pixel is represented by one of the hundreds of thousands of tiny mirrors mounted on a DLP chip. "
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 25 Sep 08 18:51
@shaolin, no I don't have equipment to measure black level. Do you think people in the forums such as AVS talks about how their plasmas black level is great compared to bla bla, have equipments? No, our eyes are the best equipments.
But is black level only your argument to decide to ditch CRT? How about bulky, use more power means more heat, magnetic distortion, radiation of gamma rays, contains toxic Lead, most not widescreen. etc etc.
But is black level only your argument to decide to ditch CRT? How about bulky, use more power means more heat, magnetic distortion, radiation of gamma rays, contains toxic Lead, most not widescreen. etc etc.
@blair
What argument are you talking about? Talking about pulling things out of your sphincter. Contrary to what you believe but Black level is important in calibrating your picture if not one of the most important. The closer you get to real black , the better detail you have in your picture. CRT's almost emit "no" light and hence why they are closer to real black than other types of TV's. Eyes are not the best equipment to calibrate your TV to get "accurate" color representation. What is "red" to someone might not be the same "red" to another. You are probably one of those people that set their TV to "sports", "movie", or any other auto setting and say, "Wow, what a picture!" If you want to get the best picture, you are going to have to get some test patterns and then calibrate it to within the limits of the television itself. But what do I care about how you calibrate your TV. Mine is at least calibrated to the best of my ability with Digital Video Essentials, which is worth its weight in gold.
What argument are you talking about? Talking about pulling things out of your sphincter. Contrary to what you believe but Black level is important in calibrating your picture if not one of the most important. The closer you get to real black , the better detail you have in your picture. CRT's almost emit "no" light and hence why they are closer to real black than other types of TV's. Eyes are not the best equipment to calibrate your TV to get "accurate" color representation. What is "red" to someone might not be the same "red" to another. You are probably one of those people that set their TV to "sports", "movie", or any other auto setting and say, "Wow, what a picture!" If you want to get the best picture, you are going to have to get some test patterns and then calibrate it to within the limits of the television itself. But what do I care about how you calibrate your TV. Mine is at least calibrated to the best of my ability with Digital Video Essentials, which is worth its weight in gold.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 26 Sep 08 02:19
So Blu Ray players don't have an upscaling feature?
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 26 Sep 08 06:54
@shaolin
Without further debating CRT vs HDTV, does your CRT support 720p? If so then be happy with it. If not, I don't think you can compare your CRT with any real and good HDTV even if black level is of your (only) concern. And yes I calibrate my samsung plasma.
Without further debating CRT vs HDTV, does your CRT support 720p? If so then be happy with it. If not, I don't think you can compare your CRT with any real and good HDTV even if black level is of your (only) concern. And yes I calibrate my samsung plasma.
@blair
" I don't think you can compare your CRT with any real and good HDTV even if black level is of your (only) concern"
You act like resolution has something to do with black level. Well, it doesn't.
"No, our eyes are the best equipments...And yes I calibrate my samsung plasma."
I find that hard to believe considering what you said before. Must do an "eye" calibration right?
" I don't think you can compare your CRT with any real and good HDTV even if black level is of your (only) concern"
You act like resolution has something to do with black level. Well, it doesn't.
"No, our eyes are the best equipments...And yes I calibrate my samsung plasma."
I find that hard to believe considering what you said before. Must do an "eye" calibration right?
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 26 Sep 08 22:43
This is what we're going to do with blurays:
1. We're gonna rip it. No crap DRM has avoided that. No crap DRM is avoiding that. Never.
2. We're going to create matroskas or unprotected bluray images, among other formats.
3. We're gonna watch them in HTPCs or standalones. Eventually, you will decode your H.264 with a hand sized machine, spending 2 watts of power doing it. We're almost there.
4. We're not gonna pay $ony a single penny. Never. They just don't deserve it. They can put their propietary DRMed formats, and their corporate greed in some place and push hard with a retractable baton. Along with their partners.
5. Finally we will download our contents directly or use some other form of hardware (flash or whatever).
6. In ten years time we will be seeing bluray when visiting the tech museum, alongside some mummified
$ony exec.
1. We're gonna rip it. No crap DRM has avoided that. No crap DRM is avoiding that. Never.
2. We're going to create matroskas or unprotected bluray images, among other formats.
3. We're gonna watch them in HTPCs or standalones. Eventually, you will decode your H.264 with a hand sized machine, spending 2 watts of power doing it. We're almost there.
4. We're not gonna pay $ony a single penny. Never. They just don't deserve it. They can put their propietary DRMed formats, and their corporate greed in some place and push hard with a retractable baton. Along with their partners.
5. Finally we will download our contents directly or use some other form of hardware (flash or whatever).
6. In ten years time we will be seeing bluray when visiting the tech museum, alongside some mummified
$ony exec.
- guest
- Posts: 15288
- Posted on: 28 Sep 08 19:18
@shaolin, go out and exchange your 480p crt then you can come back here again talk about hidef and black level and calibration.
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