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Concerns Over Xbox 360 DVD-9 Media Capacity

Posted at 28 July 2005 03:47 CET by VirusHack
It seems that the developers of the Xbox 360's games may hit a brickwall when it come to the final size of the games. We have been told by Microsoft that the Xbox 360 will be using standard DVD media, where as the PS3 will be using Blu Ray. The capacity difference is huge, a Blu Ray disk will (in theory) be able to store up to 50GB DL (Not 23Gb and thanks to jef195 for pointing this out), this dwarfs the DVD-9's 8.5GB capacity in a big way. Team Ninja chief Tomonobu Itagaki has expressed concerns over the lack of storage space on the Xbox 360's DVD media. Speaking to Japanese magazine, Famitsu, Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.You can read the full article here. Microsoft wants to use DVD-9 media to try to keep the console and game prices down, and in the long term sell the Xbox 360 cheaper than Sony's PS3. This could be a good tactic, but in a recent article it was said that PS3's hefty price would not put off potential buyers. Only time will tell if gamers will compromise on quality for price. Source: pro-g.co.uk

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There are 32 comments

kwkard
CDFreaks Resident
Posted on: 28 Jul 05 04:04
    Well I hope the rumors of it getting an HD-DVD drive will be true, but my hopes are not high :c
    VirusHack
    CD Freaks Die Hard
    Posted on: 28 Jul 05 04:26
      Microsoft have said they MAY use next gen drives in the later versions, but not from first release. VH////
      jef195
      Banned
      Posted on: 28 Jul 05 04:53
        OK I hate when people do this but here goes.....Tom needs to do research or just remember simple facts Blu-Ray will store 50GB DL not 23 it theory.
        crustyteacup
        CD Freaks Senior Member
        Posted on: 28 Jul 05 05:08
          God does nobody read articles before posting this rubbish. Microsoft already said that they would use compression techniques so that games would easily fit on a standard dvd-9. PS3 won't use that, so good luck with there expensive blu-ray drive which will likely scratch discs and break down easily (much like the v5 PS2's did). Its important to keep costs down. It may be cool having the lastest technologies in consoles but you have to remember a couple of things. The PS3 is expected to have a life cycle of 10 years, double the usual life of a console, the 360 will have a life cycle of half that. Also next generation media was not designed for games consoles, the only reason its here (and here so soon i might add) is because the greedy movie industry want to squeeze every last penny from your pocket. They want you to buy your movie collection again (not to mention they want to beef up security), so this media was not designed for consoles, games do not need 50GB.
          jef195
          Banned
          Posted on: 28 Jul 05 05:19
            "....games do not need 50GB." Originally they did not need 8-9GB But hey time marches.Also that won't stop people from poppin' in HD Movies (some 50GB size)
            nuggetreggae
            CD Freaks Member
            Posted on: 28 Jul 05 05:41
              On the current xbox Team Ninja are the worst HDD gobblers out there, using inefficient compression that needs massive amounts of HDD space for small amounts of video. One only has to look at the DOA games file structure for that. DOA 3 for example. The game dropa from 4.2GB to 400MB when you rip the movies. There are only 8 or 9 of them, and only half hour total at most. a decemt mpeg2 compression could be 1/4 of that :g
              JamesL
              CD Freaks Member
              Posted on: 28 Jul 05 10:39
                Agree with that - only the game developers that rely on "pre-rendered video sequences" to make their weak games look good are going to worry about capacity. Standard DVD is fine for data!
                Dismembered Ninja
                CD Freaks Senior Member
                Posted on: 28 Jul 05 11:30
                  It's true that there is no need for the massive space at the moment, but Microsoft was hoping to crack the Japanes market with this console and they love their pre-rendered sequences. On top of that you have got the whole high-def TV thing. On the whole its going to be a very interesting next couple of years for consoles and gaming, and I have to say that the competition is very welcome.
                  bcn_246
                  Top Referrer
                  Posted on: 28 Jul 05 11:43
                    I have no plan on ever buying a console. However I do belive that the more advanced they are getting the more similer to a PC they are also. For this reason I think (once copy protection of the games is dealt with) it would be easier to build a working emulator for the PC.
                    crustyteacup
                    CD Freaks Senior Member
                    Posted on: 28 Jul 05 14:01
                      If the developers had any sense they just wouldn't use pre-rendered video, instead just use the in game engine, that way there would never be concerns about space. Its getting to the stage that pre-rendered footage is no longer needed, it looks good enough already. Standard dvd technology is proven to work; its fast, cheap and reliable none of which you can say about blu-ray or hd-dvd. If microsoft go with hd-dvd then they get dragged into a format war in which there is a good chance that hd-dvd will lose. Microsoft listened to games developers and gave them what they wanted in a console, sony yet again went it alone and made a console they wanted. This time sony won't be as cocky because there market share will fall, not very good for a company that makes most of its money from the playstation brand. Regarding emulation, it won't be easier as the 360 has a triple PowerPC core, which can be compared to a MAC. You would need an extremely powerful PC to even think about doing it and even then you would find it almost impossible. And the PS3 uses a completely different design, so yet again probably impossible.
                      82ross
                      New on Forum
                      Posted on: 28 Jul 05 15:34
                        With the quality the nexgen game engines should provide, I wouldnt care if there wasnt any pre-rendered sequences. DVD-9 should be enough for quite some time. At a push you can split a game across 2 dvds. And in the future see what options present themselves.
                        VirusHack
                        CD Freaks Die Hard
                        Posted on: 28 Jul 05 15:44
                          @jef195 I have edited the article, my facts on Blu Ray were alittle out of date. VH////
                          JamesL
                          CD Freaks Member
                          Posted on: 28 Jul 05 16:00
                            >>>> I have edited the article, my facts on Blu Ray were alittle out of date
                            VirusHack
                            CD Freaks Die Hard
                            Posted on: 28 Jul 05 16:17
                              OK right, here is a list of what media (from the PS3 final specs) will support: DISC MEDIA: CD PlayStation CD-ROM PlayStation2 CD-ROM CD-DA CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD DualDisc (audio side) DualDisc (DVD side) PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM DVD-ROM DVD-R DVD-RW DVD+R, DVD+RW Blu-ray Disc PlayStation 3 BD-ROM BD-ROM BD VH////
                              JamesL
                              CD Freaks Member
                              Posted on: 28 Jul 05 17:48
                                Exactly - no mention of dual layer BluRay discs...
                                Electrox3d
                                MyCE Member
                                Posted on: 28 Jul 05 19:42
                                  When you write "It can read DVD-ROM" you don't need to mention " and DVD ROM DL" because it is already written in the technology. Same with Blu-ray, being able to read BD-ROM IS being able to read BD-ROM SL and future DL.
                                  psychoace
                                  CD Freaks Senior Member
                                  Posted on: 28 Jul 05 19:42
                                    I am sure since they mention blu ray atleast 2 times in there and also cause of the fact sony is a major backer of blu ray that dual layer is going to be a supported medium. I doubt they would limit there system so people wont buy dual layer bluray disc's which they are fully supporting.
                                    JamesL
                                    CD Freaks Member
                                    Posted on: 28 Jul 05 19:56
                                      >>>>When you write "It can read DVD-ROM" you don't need to mention " and DVD ROM DL" because it is already written in the technology. > Same with Blu-ray, being able to read BD-ROM IS being able to read BD-ROM SL and future DL.
                                      JamesL
                                      CD Freaks Member
                                      Posted on: 28 Jul 05 19:57
                                        >>>> I am sure since they mention blu ray atleast 2 times in there and also cause of the fact sony is a major backer of blu ray that dual layer is going to be a supported medium
                                        Controller
                                        CD Freaks Member
                                        Posted on: 28 Jul 05 20:27
                                          Sony used to be a great company with great products. Now they are an also ran company with products that don't stack up to the competition. They hope to change that with blu ray, but it appears they are yet again trying a proprietary format that few others will support.
                                          Zod
                                          MyCE Resident
                                          Posted on: 28 Jul 05 20:56
                                            maybe microsoft is waiting it out until a drive gets developed that can read both and goes to mass market. its kind of what i see happening with the next generation. They'll trickle about until someone comes up with a lower cost drive that reads all the formats. that way whoever the company is, can put it out on either format, to whomever they feel like paying out royalties out too. some current gen xbox games already squeeze past the size of a single layer disc. I would guess most of the 1st releases for the 360 will have no problem fitting on a dvd9. I'm thinking of the later years of the machine, when the demand for space will become more prudent. someone above mentioned microsoft changing the drive somewhere down the line. That would really suck for people who shelled out 400 for the 1st model. I myself usually wait on buying a console for the 1st year to until it gets down to 200-250 Canadian in price. i do think it would be short sited for microsoft to not think far enough ahead for space concerns.
                                            FaSMaN
                                            CD Freaks Rookie
                                            Posted on: 28 Jul 05 21:04
                                              Not true at all,look at Ps2 and Xbox1 copy protection was broken ages ago yet you cant get a working(as in runs at full speed with good game support) emulator. Ps2 has PCSX2 it shows lots of in game footage but runs at a whole 2fps. Xbox has two working emulators the only two working games are halo1 and turok evolution each one berly working and far from the PC versions.
                                              FaSMaN
                                              CD Freaks Rookie
                                              Posted on: 28 Jul 05 21:16
                                                I think the main reason why MS is going to use normal DVD-DL is becouse it is a tryd and trusted format,whe know its limetations and there wont be too many laser related problems. Now lets look back at the PS2 it was released and started using dvd for its games a releatively new format back then,the first batch of consoles the SCPH-10001 had tons of laser and disc problems,they then released the SCPH-30004 a little bit better but lasers would wear out quickly,I think the only time they had fixed the laser issue was by the SCP-39001 witch was the 7th version of PS2. Now Sony has made the same mistake again and jumped into the blue ray disc before it was properly tested and tryd...WAY TO GO SONY :g MS on the other hand knows that they can use DVD duel layr discs for the next year or so without having too much problems and while this is released they can keep there eyes on HD to see how good it is and if it gives any problems then adress the problems and finally rerelease there Xbox 360 with HD support and have most people who bought the first xbox360 to bay it again,giving them dubble profits... Very Very clever way of marketing
                                                hazel_wu
                                                CD Freaks Junior Member
                                                Posted on: 28 Jul 05 22:49
                                                  PS3 may have 10 year life cycle, but what about the warranty of the console? Most likely still one year. I do not know how long you guys' console lasts but maybe MS can announce a HD DVD Xbox 360 when most people's Xbox360 will be broken, so people may not feel that bad that they need to buy a replacement.
                                                  dagamer667
                                                  CD Freaks Junior Member
                                                  Posted on: 28 Jul 05 23:09
                                                    Crappy bloated FMV is just about the only major space filler. That used to be necessary when console CPUs weren't powerful enough to decode compressed video to maintain stable playback. Next gen consoles will be powerful enough to do in-game scenes like every PC game does since 2000 or so. It's really jarring to play a game at 1280*1024 to have it switch to 800*600 for a cutscene. Another space-hog is multi-lingual releases that have several languages on one disc. Any decent developers should have absolutely no trouble with the media size.
                                                    hazel_wu
                                                    CD Freaks Junior Member
                                                    Posted on: 28 Jul 05 23:41
                                                      We want to have high-resolution cut-scenes to go with our future high-resolution games, which takes a lot of space.
                                                      82ross
                                                      New on Forum
                                                      Posted on: 29 Jul 05 01:05
                                                        The idea is for them not to use pre-rendered cut scenes but game engine driven ones. As to adding hddvd support to the 360 a decent priced usb external hd-drive addon would suffice, no need to buy a completely new system.
                                                        u_n_s97
                                                        MyCE Senior Member
                                                        Posted on: 29 Jul 05 01:36
                                                          Just remember how bad the 1st Xbox drives were, but now they are shipping almost all Xbox's with Samsung/Hitachi drives. What if MS will support HD-DVD in a few years, none will complain as their old drives will already be dead, so they have to replace them with a new one what will cost 20-40 bucks. I personally think it's a wiser decision than releasing a non tested technology (as the 1st PS2's were with their famous DVD based DISC READ ERRORS). Of course Blue Ray sounds better, but I better wait some years when technology and prices will be better than buying anything just to have it and be the betatester of $ony. (I payed a way too much for their PS2 lasers, plus have had to repair too many of their crappy PS2's to waste more money on them) Or they should give at least 3 years warranty on their lasers then. The last good thing Sony has done was the CD development (with Philips) more than 20 years ago, I've yet to see a product from $ony that cannot be beaten in price/reliability since that time.:d regards, Stephen
                                                          crustyteacup
                                                          CD Freaks Senior Member
                                                          Posted on: 29 Jul 05 06:04
                                                            I think all this talk about replacing the dvd drive with a hd-dvd drive at a later stage is crazy. I mean, consoles are created equally, not like PC's, thats basically the only thing that differs between the two formats. The fact that there all the same mean that everybody enjoys the same gaming experience and all the games are created for that console, they don't have to be created for the lowest possible spec xbox 360. Adding a hd-dvd drive would create chaos, so what happens to the people who bought the original 360 without it: they don't get to play the lastest games; they have to play it on 2 dvds therefore degrading the experience so its hardly equal gaming experience. And even if microsoft upgraded it for free it would still create chaos, plus microsoft would lose a shit load of money, and if it wasn't free then people would feel ripped off. Either all consoles have it, or they don't not half do and half don't because then it is a PC not a console anymore. PC game developers were slow to take on DVDs because if you sell your game as a DVD your potentially only selling to a fraction of the market. And selling it in both DVD and CD format just adds to the cost of the development. Microsoft want to keep costs down at all costs and don't want to cause customer confusion. Microsoft have chosen well, it would be stupid for them to put a hd-dvd drive in it either now or 2 years down the line just because a couple of developers cannot let go of pre-rendered videos.
                                                            Zeroi786
                                                            CD Freaks Member
                                                            Posted on: 29 Jul 05 08:37
                                                              DVD-9 is more than enough space for Xbox 360. Japanese Firms will just have to Encode there Rendered Sequence's in Hi-Def Mpeg4 instead of uncompressed AVI. I haven't ever heard square complain that there games are to big and span to many disc's, nor have I heard of a Final Fantasy fan complain about to many discs. Intact most FF fans like to tell you they beat all four discs. So if there is a Xbox360 Game that despite compression still uses more space than a DVD-9 just add another DVD-9 because I bet that 8 DVD-9 discs will still be cheaper than 1-Blue ray disc lol. Besides that who wants a Blue ray Game disc if they are as delicate as I have read even with there protective layer, Game Rentals would suck especially since Block buster could no longer shave off a tiny later if scratched with there $3000 disc buffer machines, a shaved layer would mean no more level five. DVD-9 also makes it copyable and being a CDfreaks.com member I think that is way more important to be able to back-up my media. After all every Blue-Ray disc and HD-DVD disc are going to have a Digital Imprimatur to authorize playback so no backing up Blue-Ray and HD-DVD discs, if you don't believe me read here http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12153. DVD-9 is an advantage in my mind. :g
                                                              Pulp Catalyst
                                                              New on Forum
                                                              Posted on: 29 Jul 05 20:02
                                                                I have to say that compression techniques are availible, but are often over looked from the developers, some movies are wrapped in poor compression for example Bik format, however microsoft have been dealing with this issue for a long time now, and i have to admit, they have it quite well in hand, but i think the time has come for them to use a good video codec, as lets face it, it's the FMV what creates the story, and as long as they keep this in mind (Which i'm sure they have) then i think sticking to a proven solid media format is a sound idea, after all we are talking a lot of money in investments and no one wants to gamble with new technologies when they have proven there self yet. further still looking at it from the whole i don't think increasing the media size is always a good idea, ecspecially when we have only reached the beginning of compression, as i believe one day a whole film will fit on a 3 and half inch floppy disk (you may laugh, but why not cumunication in space will depend on this type of compression in the future) but if the media size keep increasing then i fear that we won't push development in this field that far, but microsoft relies already heavily on compression ecspecially in the data world, and now they will combine both data, sound, and there new video techniques together and put it in the 360, but of course only time will tell to see if this pays of, as we've all come to realize that even though the technology is there will software companies utilize it right, or do a piss poor job and waste hardware potential. but my final point is if they use the latest in compression technology then dvd size disks are fine, because it's video what brings the problems as sound and data has been sorted already, i think microsoft is on the right track thinking compression is more important then actual size of media. but this of course is only my opinion. (i wonder if they use Xvid as it clearly is the best for video hehehe)
                                                                mgleason007
                                                                New on Forum
                                                                Posted on: 01 Aug 05 07:00
                                                                  Am I the only one who has thought that an HD-DVD drive could be added onto existing xbox's? I don't see why early Xbox 360 adopters couldn't buy an external hd-dvd made for the 360. And no, Microsoft would NOT use xvid for the 360. Out of curiosity, is that codec capable of hi-def? In any case, I would imagine MS would use their own Windows Media hi-def codec. The point most people are trying to make in this thread and is being continually ignored is that pre-rendered video is unnecessary and the developer should use the in-game engine. The 360 is plenty powerful for this.

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