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Cinavia protection on Blu-Ray discs finally broken?

Posted at 22 September 2012 09:21 CEST by Liggy

Cinavia protection is implemented by adding a watermark to the audio track that is then detected by the player which stops playback if it does not match the AACS key on the disc. So far the success in beating this protection was rather small, but now software developer Pixbytes, the authors of  programs like DVD neXt COPY and DVD-Ranger, claim to have broken the Cinavia protection that comes on many Blu-Ray discs and DVDs and stops playback of copied discs that were protected with Cinavia on certain Blu-Ray players.

DVD Ranger logo

According to the authors, the protection was broken accidentally while developing a different software. While not actually removing Cinavia protection, the signal was changed in a way so that it has become unreadable thus disabling the protection by using a design flaw in Cinavia.

Right now the software is still in development and the authors report a success rate of 55% on the tested Blu-Ray discs and DVDs. The release of DVD Ranger 5 is scheduled for October 31st and will cost $89.99 plus $39.99 for the Cinavia module. Pre-order price is $69.99 – including the Cinavia module.

What do you think? Will their solution actually work and if it does will the industry to find a way to work around this again? Can we expect other software to include this “fix” as well? Anyone has an idea how they may have managed to bypass the protection? Feel free to comment and share your views with us.

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There are 80 comments

Wombler
Administrator & Reviewer
Posted on: 22 Sep 12 12:25
    That is awesome news and looks like it will lead to a full solution once they've tweaked it.

    I wonder if this is completely non-destructive to the audio though?


    Wombler
    Liggy
    Senior Administrator
    Posted on: 22 Sep 12 12:46
      I think the solution cannot be non-destructive, as even Cinavia itself isn't non-destructive. It has to change (destruct) the audio stream in order to add the watermark. However the question is not whether it is destructive or not, but rather if it is possible to hear the difference between the original soundtrack and the modified one.

      Found a nice (old) article on audio watermarks today, perhaps it's worth reading this one.
      Wombler
      Administrator & Reviewer
      Posted on: 22 Sep 12 12:58
        Yeah that's a good article.

        I'd read that before when researching Cinavia and the likelihood of it being defeated.

        IIRC the key difference between these challenges and the Cinavia problem is that no untouched versions of the Cinavia infected audio are available for comparison.

        Interesting stuff though and TBH some of the mathematics involved is a bit beyond my limits.


        Wombler
        tmc8080
        MyCE Resident
        Posted on: 22 Sep 12 16:15
          Most copy protections work in obscurity.. once people understand how they work, methods can be developed to defeat them. You also can't put it past this nasty blu ray consortium to use "connected" blu ray players to phone home over the internet if they detect "copied" mediums of which the copyrights/watermarks have been tampered with..

          Isn't it just better to stream content via a HTPC or meida box dedicated for this purpose?
          Liggy
          Senior Administrator
          Posted on: 22 Sep 12 20:19
            I have to admit that I still prefer physical discs (DVD or Blu-Ray) over mpeg, mp4 or mkv files. DVD and Blu-Ray is something you can play on almost every machine, while I've already seen several incompatibilities of other formats on certain devices like MKV file can be played - sound is missing.
            coolcolors
            MyCE Resident
            Posted on: 22 Sep 12 21:38
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Liggy
              I have to admit that I still prefer physical discs (DVD or Blu-Ray) over mpeg, mp4 or mkv files. DVD and Blu-Ray is something you can play on almost every machine, while I've already seen several incompatibilities of other formats on certain devices like MKV file can be played - sound is missing.
              I am with you here the physical medium is good to have and one can do as they like once they have it and store it or backup much times as needed preserving the original from damage.
              CDan
              MyCE Resident
              Posted on: 22 Sep 12 21:49
                If you're playing shiny discs, then Cinavia is of no concern to you unless those discs are recordable.
                alan1476
                Senior Moderator, Software Editor and Head of Promotions
                Posted on: 23 Sep 12 01:42
                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by CDan
                  If you're playing shiny discs, then Cinavia is of no concern to you unless those discs are recordable.
                  Finally someone put this in perspective. Thanks CDan.
                  debro
                  Blown to smitherines
                  Posted on: 23 Sep 12 02:34
                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by CDan
                    If you're playing shiny discs, then Cinavia is of no concern to you unless those discs are recordable.
                    But if you're trying to make a backup so that your children don't destroy the original of their favourite kids show, cinavia ensures that you're totally f@#$%d.
                    CDan
                    MyCE Resident
                    Posted on: 23 Sep 12 05:19
                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by debro
                      But if you're trying to make a backup so that your children don't destroy the original of their favourite kids show, cinavia ensures that you're totally f@#$%d.
                      Not necessarily, there are ways around it. It all depends on the player in use. Its FAR too early in the game to make blanket assumptions. Once more players show up that are Cinavia enabled, there will be some reliable data. At present it is possible to rip and avoid issues with Cinavia infected content on some players. Or, just keep a pre-2012 player around that has no Cinavia decoding.

                      Cinavia is not the apocalypse, it's just another protection to be worked around.
                      FreqNasty_RiseS
                      MyCE Member
                      Posted on: 23 Sep 12 07:54
                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Liggy
                        I have to admit that I still prefer physical discs (DVD or Blu-Ray) over mpeg, mp4 or mkv files. DVD and Blu-Ray is something you can play on almost every machine, while I've already seen several incompatibilities of other formats on certain devices like MKV file can be played - sound is missing.
                        @Liggy,

                        Now that Optiarc is leaving the optical drive business, what does the future hold for you? Shift your attention to firmware mods on another brand? Or possibly something more extreme, like a move into console hacking, apple device jail breaking etc?
                        FreqNasty_RiseS
                        MyCE Member
                        Posted on: 23 Sep 12 08:00
                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by debro
                          But if you're trying to make a backup so that your children don't destroy the original of their favourite kids show, cinavia ensures that you're totally f@#$%d.
                          As the movie companies would suggest, buying another copy of the movie will ensure you have a backup in the event of a disaster
                          Liggy
                          Senior Administrator
                          Posted on: 23 Sep 12 10:05
                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by FreqNasty_RiseS
                            Now that Optiarc is leaving the optical drive business, what does the future hold for you? Shift your attention to firmware mods on another brand? Or possibly something more extreme, like a move into console hacking, apple device jail breaking etc?
                            Probably nothing of the above. I often didn't even find much time to do the firmware patching and my skills are far away from being good enough to shift to some even more complicated hacking. But that's a little off-topic here
                            Wombler
                            Administrator & Reviewer
                            Posted on: 23 Sep 12 12:55
                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by CDan
                              Not necessarily, there are ways around it. It all depends on the player in use. Its FAR too early in the game to make blanket assumptions. Once more players show up that are Cinavia enabled, there will be some reliable data. At present it is possible to rip and avoid issues with Cinavia infected content on some players. Or, just keep a pre-2012 player around that has no Cinavia decoding.

                              Cinavia is not the apocalypse, it's just another protection to be worked around.
                              I'm lucky enough to have a player that isn't capable of supporting Cinavia and will therefore remain immune but that's not a future proof solution as I'll eventually want to upgrade or probably even sooner buy another player for another room in the house.

                              I'd rather not be left in the future with a pile of expensive backups that won't play on a newer player, so even though I'm not currently affected, removing Cinavia seems like a pretty good idea to me.


                              Wombler
                              CDan
                              MyCE Resident
                              Posted on: 23 Sep 12 14:37
                                It's also good to note that only a minority of titles have Cinavia protection. Currently only Sony is using it extensively and most studios are avoiding it due to its cost. Warner has released a few. Other studios like Lionsgate are investing in other copy protections. Ultimately the bottom line will drive studios toward or away from Cinavia, so one can always vote with one's wallet.
                                FreqNasty_RiseS
                                MyCE Member
                                Posted on: 23 Sep 12 16:55
                                  Cinavia took 10 years to develop but far less time to break.
                                  Wombler
                                  Administrator & Reviewer
                                  Posted on: 23 Sep 12 21:55
                                    Quote:
                                    Originally Posted by FreqNasty_RiseS
                                    Cinavia took 10 years to develop but far less time to break.
                                    True but it's taking longer and longer to break evermore sophisticated protection systems.

                                    Also it remains to be seen if new Cinavia variants will appear that beat this currently proposed solution.

                                    It's still a major breakthough though and will hopefully have broken this protection for good.


                                    Wombler
                                    ChristineBCW
                                    MyCE Die Hard
                                    Posted on: 23 Sep 12 21:56
                                      Freq, it reminds me of King George's stamp tax, meant to raise about $20k. The colonists boycotted British ships and quickly cost the King's coffers about $100k. The Parliament, under the wise advise of merchants, repealed the stamp tax. King G did it again, and the same results, only quicker and steaper losses resulted. Again, the Parliament repealed it. On the third try, the King sent troops into the colonies to force new taxes. This added at least $50k a year to the project, and by 1781, the King had spent several hundred thousand, lost thousands of lives, was ridiculed by the French, Dutch and Spanish, and lost his colonies, too. All for $20k - way to stay focused, Kingie.

                                      Tuchman's THE MARCH OF FOLLY has a lot more. I have to wonder when FollyWare will become the latest genre.
                                      Wombler
                                      Administrator & Reviewer
                                      Posted on: 23 Sep 12 21:58
                                        Quote:
                                        Originally Posted by CDan
                                        It's also good to note that only a minority of titles have Cinavia protection. Currently only Sony is using it extensively and most studios are avoiding it due to its cost. Warner has released a few. Other studios like Lionsgate are investing in other copy protections. Ultimately the bottom line will drive studios toward or away from Cinavia, so one can always vote with one's wallet.
                                        Plus if Cinavia has been broken then other studios won't buy into that technology anyway.


                                        Wombler
                                        Liggy
                                        Senior Administrator
                                        Posted on: 24 Sep 12 10:07
                                          Plus if one company managed to break this protection, others should be able to find out how they did it and implement this in their own products.

                                          My guess is that they cannot actually remove the bits inserted by Cinavia, but just add further bits, confusing the Cinavia detection mechanism.
                                          tmc8080
                                          MyCE Resident
                                          Posted on: 24 Sep 12 15:53
                                            A tablet with HDMI output, or a SMART streaming HDTV, FTW!
                                            Most new equipment will be network streaming very soon if not already.. I like my disc media for data backups as much as the next person... for Video? It seems ancient.. I'll use a rewritable once in a blue moon, but regularly? nah..
                                            ChristineBCW
                                            MyCE Die Hard
                                            Posted on: 24 Sep 12 16:12
                                              Quote:
                                              Originally Posted by FreqNasty_RiseS
                                              ...buying another copy of the movie will ensure...
                                              ...that more original copies can be lost, stolen, damaged! I still prefer using the copy and storing the master.

                                              Buying 2 originals won't guarantee loss, of course. And we've seen so many titles go 'out of print' that studios definitely won't guarantee we can buy a future copy.

                                              At least Disney is upfront about this - "On sale for 6 months, then maybe in a few years, this title will return to market." They achieve two goals - one, they force quicker sales and reduced inventory-time, and they reduce inventory space, overall, freeing up shelf space for their next line of titles.

                                              We still have several hundred commercial VHS tapes that were never put on out DVD or, perhaps worse, more edited versions on DVD than the original VHS offerings. But this also occurred with the original LaserDisc offerings - if titles are produced onto future media supplies, consumers have no guarantees of anything. "Do it ourselves" seems to be the best choice.
                                              roadworker
                                              MyCE Resident
                                              Posted on: 24 Sep 12 21:27
                                                Quote:
                                                Originally Posted by ChristineBCW
                                                "Do it ourselves" seems to be the best choice.
                                                Indeed!
                                                And most of times,with the right tools,we can make the backup to our taste......
                                                Wombler
                                                Administrator & Reviewer
                                                Posted on: 24 Sep 12 21:42
                                                  Quote:
                                                  Originally Posted by Liggy
                                                  My guess is that they cannot actually remove the bits inserted by Cinavia, but just add further bits, confusing the Cinavia detection mechanism.
                                                  I would suspect that you're probably right there Liggy as even the standalones don't have routines that actually remove Cinavia they just play the audio with the Cinavia signature included.

                                                  It may be indeed therefore be impossible to remove but possible to circumvent triggering of its activation routines.

                                                  That would be another slight degradation in the audio quality but hopefully it's still unnoticable.


                                                  Wombler
                                                  CDan
                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                  Posted on: 24 Sep 12 23:40
                                                    The Cinavia "signal" is not audio as we know it. It uses a differential in the S/N ratio to create a small data signal. I forgot the amount but it's measured in bits. It's only applied in the audio during passages with enough sound to mask it. If anyone WAS actually able to hear it - it might sound like a brief pulsing hiss, but it doesn't actually effect the audio quality per se. Questions of audibility or "degradation" aside, it cannot be removed from a bitstream, the audio would have to be decoded then the signal somehow masked. Odds are high that removing it or masking it would be far more audible than the signal is.

                                                    It's correct that the real solution will be in the playback device, either a hardware or firmware hack, or perhaps if the player simply ignores it when it occurs outside of a BD format. IOW, copy the movie to some other format and the player ignores Cinavia.
                                                    alan1476
                                                    Senior Moderator, Software Editor and Head of Promotions
                                                    Posted on: 25 Sep 12 00:21
                                                      Quote:
                                                      Originally Posted by CDan
                                                      The Cinavia "signal" is not audio as we know it. It uses a differential in the S/N ratio to create a small data signal. I forgot the amount but it's measured in bits. It's only applied in the audio during passages with enough sound to mask it. If anyone WAS actually able to hear it - it might sound like a brief pulsing hiss, but it doesn't actually effect the audio quality per se. Questions of audibility or "degradation" aside, it cannot be removed from a bitstream, the audio would have to be decoded then the signal somehow masked. Odds are high that removing it or masking it would be far more audible than the signal is.

                                                      It's correct that the real solution will be in the playback device, either a hardware or firmware hack, or perhaps if the player simply ignores it when it occurs outside of a BD format. IOW, copy the movie to some other format and the player ignores Cinavia.
                                                      Hi CDan, do you think it will also remove the watermark? I have my reservations.
                                                      DVDRangerForum
                                                      MyCE Rookie
                                                      Posted on: 25 Sep 12 02:47
                                                        According to the authors, the protection was broken accidentally while developing a different software. While not actually removing Cinavia protection, the signal was changed in a way so that it has become unreadable thus disabling the protection by using a design flaw in Cinavia.
                                                        debro
                                                        Blown to smitherines
                                                        Posted on: 25 Sep 12 03:01
                                                          It's amazing how many discoveries are "by Accident".

                                                          Quick! Patent it!
                                                          CDan
                                                          MyCE Resident
                                                          Posted on: 25 Sep 12 05:42
                                                            Quote:
                                                            Originally Posted by alan1476
                                                            Hi CDan, do you think it will also remove the watermark? I have my reservations.
                                                            The watermark is part of the audio after it's decoded. Removing it is impossible. Altering it in some way to make it stop functioning is possible but unlikely - certainly doing so has greater chance of degrading the audio. It would certainly involve decoding the bitstream first, meaning re-encoding it again. So, demux the audio, decode it, alter it then re-encode it and lastly remux. Sound like something you want to do every time you rip a movie?
                                                            debro
                                                            Blown to smitherines
                                                            Posted on: 25 Sep 12 06:00
                                                              Quote:
                                                              Originally Posted by CDan
                                                              It would certainly involve decoding the bitstream first, meaning re-encoding it again. So, demux the audio, decode it, alter it then re-encode it and lastly remux. Sound like something you want to do every time you rip a movie?
                                                              The audio decoding/processing/recoding wouldn't be a huge problem, in comparison to the video stream, but:
                                                              1) It's not the original sound quality.
                                                              2) It's more time consuming.
                                                              3) Introduces potential timing/recoding/compatibility issues.

                                                              It'd be nice to see *just one* original audio track, ex-cinavia, out in the wild
                                                              CDan
                                                              MyCE Resident
                                                              Posted on: 25 Sep 12 17:36
                                                                Even more interesting would be a stolen copy of Cinavia's software used for applying the watermark. I'll guess that the watermark is applied to the audio in LPCM format before encoding to it's final codec. Reverse engineering the watermark would provide a path to removing it or at least disabling it. But still I think the answer is in modding the playback device.
                                                                alan1476
                                                                Senior Moderator, Software Editor and Head of Promotions
                                                                Posted on: 25 Sep 12 17:45
                                                                  Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by CDan
                                                                  Even more interesting would be a stolen copy of Cinavia's software used for applying the watermark. I'll guess that the watermark is applied to the audio in LPCM format before encoding to it's final codec. Reverse engineering the watermark would provide a path to removing it or at least disabling it. But still I think the answer is in modding the playback device.
                                                                  Then to say you have defeated Cinavia the watermark must be removed. Thanks for your feedback.
                                                                  roadworker
                                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                                  Posted on: 25 Sep 12 22:56
                                                                    Quote:
                                                                    Originally Posted by DVDRangerForum
                                                                    According to the authors, the protection was broken accidentally while developing a different software. While not actually removing Cinavia protection, the signal was changed in a way so that it has become unreadable thus disabling the protection by using a design flaw in Cinavia.

                                                                    Is this a design flaw that can be patched by the Cinavia developers?Or is it a definitive solution?Otherwise,this will be the start of a cat and mouse game,or it could even end quickly like with DvdFab.....
                                                                    I'm also curious how the audio from the ripped disc will sound on a good speaker system......but if this works well,I'm definately interested !
                                                                    deanwitty
                                                                    Moderator
                                                                    Posted on: 26 Sep 12 01:48
                                                                      This "accidental" workaround sounds much simpler than all the decoding/processing/re-encoding being bandied about here .

                                                                      CDan mentioned that the signal is hidden in the S/N ratio. Has anyone ever heard of Dolby noise reduction? It strikes me that this accidental discovery may have surfaced as they were simply creating an audio filter aimed at shifting the S/N ratio. Pretty cool, if so . If this is the case, it may well result in an improvement of sound quality, not degradation.
                                                                      TSJnachos117
                                                                      MyCE Senior Member
                                                                      Posted on: 27 Sep 12 10:03
                                                                        Quote:
                                                                        Originally Posted by ChristineBCW
                                                                        Freq, it reminds me of King George's stamp tax, meant to raise about $20k. The colonists boycotted British ships and quickly cost the King's coffers about $100k. The Parliament, under the wise advise of merchants, repealed the stamp tax. King G did it again, and the same results, only quicker and steaper losses resulted. Again, the Parliament repealed it. On the third try, the King sent troops into the colonies to force new taxes. This added at least $50k a year to the project, and by 1781, the King had spent several hundred thousand, lost thousands of lives, was ridiculed by the French, Dutch and Spanish, and lost his colonies, too. All for $20k - way to stay focused, Kingie.
                                                                        Unfortunately, that's how DRM works. I once read somewhere on the Sandisk forums, someone refered to it as "Digital Rights Misery". Really, that's what it is. In a way, I believe DRM contributes to piracy, since buying a legal copy seems more and more like a huge pain, compared to getting an illegal copy without protection.

                                                                        Actually, I'd say making a legal backup of a legal copy is the real pain. But, I suppose making more money is more important to the movie industry (and the music industry, too) than giving their customers what they actually want.
                                                                        olyteddy
                                                                        Senior Moderator
                                                                        Posted on: 31 Oct 12 03:32
                                                                          Oh Boy! Oh Boy! Tomorrow is the day! Say Good-Bye to Cinavia! Thank you DVD Ranger!
                                                                          Wombler
                                                                          Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                          Posted on: 31 Oct 12 14:26
                                                                            Quote:
                                                                            Originally Posted by olyteddy
                                                                            Oh Boy! Oh Boy! Tomorrow is the day! Say Good-Bye to Cinavia! Thank you DVD Ranger!
                                                                            So have you ordered it then?


                                                                            Wombler
                                                                            MCG_1983
                                                                            New Member
                                                                            Posted on: 07 Nov 12 00:39
                                                                              I already cracked Cinavia like 6 months ago, just every website I post the solution on bans me.
                                                                              Kerry56
                                                                              Administrator
                                                                              Posted on: 07 Nov 12 00:46
                                                                                Quote:
                                                                                Originally Posted by MCG_1983
                                                                                I already cracked Cinavia like 6 months ago, just every website I post the solution on bans me.
                                                                                We believe everyone has the right to make quality backups of media that they own. That has been a part of this site since its beginnings, when it was called CDFreaks.

                                                                                If you have a legitimate method of bypassing, or removing Cinavia, we would be eager to hear it.
                                                                                alan1476
                                                                                Senior Moderator, Software Editor and Head of Promotions
                                                                                Posted on: 07 Nov 12 02:11
                                                                                  I cracked it also, I just deleted all the sound tracks and used subtitles.
                                                                                  Liggy
                                                                                  Senior Administrator
                                                                                  Posted on: 07 Nov 12 10:25
                                                                                    Quote:
                                                                                    Originally Posted by alan1476
                                                                                    I just deleted all the sound tracks and used subtitles.
                                                                                    Are your subtitles in DTS-HD MA?
                                                                                    DrageMester
                                                                                    Retired Moderator
                                                                                    Posted on: 07 Nov 12 14:39
                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                      Originally Posted by alan1476
                                                                                      I cracked it also, I just deleted all the sound tracks and used subtitles.
                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                      Originally Posted by Liggy
                                                                                      Are your subtitles in DTS-HD MA?
                                                                                      It should work excellently with such classics as this movie, where Marcel Marceau, the mime, has the only speaking part!

                                                                                      Attachment 247183
                                                                                      Wombler
                                                                                      Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                      Posted on: 07 Nov 12 14:44
                                                                                        Quote:
                                                                                        Originally Posted by Kerry56
                                                                                        If you have a legitimate method of bypassing, or removing Cinavia, we would be eager to hear it.
                                                                                        Indeed!


                                                                                        Wombler
                                                                                        CDan
                                                                                        MyCE Resident
                                                                                        Posted on: 07 Nov 12 17:32
                                                                                          Its still true that Mediatek based BD players will ignore Cinavia in MKV, M2TS and other media files made from BDs.

                                                                                          Also true that it only triggers protection after 20 min of continuous viewing. After that you can turn off the player, reboot and pick up again where you left off for another 20 min.

                                                                                          I can't speak to other players, but the above is probably true even for the Sony BD players with Mediatek decoders. Whether Sony gets around to forcing Mediatek to plug those holes is another question, but the reboot trick will probably always work.
                                                                                          MCG_1983
                                                                                          New Member
                                                                                          Posted on: 07 Nov 12 17:35
                                                                                            if you want to bypass cinavia, extract the audio from the file, run the audio file through spdifer.exe and mux it back into the video file removing the original audio, so simple
                                                                                            Wombler
                                                                                            Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                            Posted on: 07 Nov 12 23:39
                                                                                              Quote:
                                                                                              Originally Posted by MCG_1983
                                                                                              if you want to bypass cinavia, extract the audio from the file, run the audio file through spdifer.exe and mux it back into the video file removing the original audio, so simple
                                                                                              Thanks for that.

                                                                                              If anyone with suitable discs would like to try this and report back to us we'd be grateful.

                                                                                              spdifer.exe is part of the AC3 Filter tools available from here.


                                                                                              Wombler
                                                                                              Steve33
                                                                                              MyCE Member
                                                                                              Posted on: 09 Nov 12 01:29
                                                                                                Yeah, my BD player happily plays any cinavia infested audio so I can't try the fix.
                                                                                                Maybe someone here has a 2012 blu-ray player, I think it needs to be made after February.

                                                                                                For that matter, I can play BD files through my inboard TV media player and it doesn't care either.
                                                                                                MCG_1983
                                                                                                New Member
                                                                                                Posted on: 09 Nov 12 19:31
                                                                                                  So what's the point in posting then? If your hardware plays Cinavia files, why are you trawling through threads which are about bypassing Cinavia and making pointless comments, do you have a job?
                                                                                                  alan1476
                                                                                                  Senior Moderator, Software Editor and Head of Promotions
                                                                                                  Posted on: 09 Nov 12 20:11
                                                                                                    Quote:
                                                                                                    Originally Posted by MCG_1983
                                                                                                    So what's the point in posting then? If your hardware plays Cinavia files, why are you trawling through threads which are about bypassing Cinavia and making pointless comments, do you have a job?
                                                                                                    Its a conversation, and anyone is allowed to participate as long as they are polite and on topic.
                                                                                                    Steve33
                                                                                                    MyCE Member
                                                                                                    Posted on: 10 Nov 12 04:54
                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by MCG_1983
                                                                                                      So what's the point in posting then? If your hardware plays Cinavia files, why are you trawling through threads which are about bypassing Cinavia and making pointless comments, do you have a job?
                                                                                                      Actually this could sometime in the future affect all of us as hardware models fail and need to be replaced.
                                                                                                      ...3 posts so far, wow...
                                                                                                      And I have people to PM me asking how to get around or defeat cinavia.
                                                                                                      Wombler
                                                                                                      Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                      Posted on: 10 Nov 12 13:30
                                                                                                        Quote:
                                                                                                        Originally Posted by Steve33
                                                                                                        Actually this could sometime in the future affect all of us as hardware models fail and need to be replaced.
                                                                                                        Correct.


                                                                                                        Wombler
                                                                                                        Smabbage
                                                                                                        MyCE Member
                                                                                                        Posted on: 15 Nov 12 22:05
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by MCG_1983
                                                                                                          if you want to bypass cinavia, extract the audio from the file, run the audio file through spdifer.exe and mux it back into the video file removing the original audio, so simple
                                                                                                          Could you elaborate? Everything I've read indicates this is for PS3 playback of mkv files, not disc backups.
                                                                                                          debro
                                                                                                          Blown to smitherines
                                                                                                          Posted on: 16 Nov 12 06:41
                                                                                                            Quote:
                                                                                                            Originally Posted by Smabbage
                                                                                                            Could you elaborate? Everything I've read indicates this is for PS3 playback of mkv files, not disc backups.
                                                                                                            Seems like it's a "trick" to convince the PS3 not to parse the audio, but to pass it straight to the receiver for processing.

                                                                                                            It appears to write a PCM header to a DTS audio track ....

                                                                                                            Of course, a DTS encoded track looks nothing like a stereo PCM track ... so the PS3 bitstreams it to the receiver .. which begins parsing the file, recognises it as a DTS surround bitstream, and outputs it correctly.

                                                                                                            Seems logical that it won't work if, you don't have a dedicated DTS receiver.

                                                                                                            Also seems logical that at some point, sony will catch-on, and kill this.
                                                                                                            Also seems logical that eventually all surround receivers will have Cinavia implemented into them.
                                                                                                            MCG_1983
                                                                                                            New Member
                                                                                                            Posted on: 16 Nov 12 10:06
                                                                                                              That's true, this solution will only work if you have DTS reveiver. However, this is the only true solution to Cinavia at the moment. Any solution that is posted on here, there is a risk of Sony implementing a fix for, but at the moment, there is nothing implemented by Sony, so that is a valid solution.
                                                                                                              JW_7378
                                                                                                              New Member
                                                                                                              Posted on: 24 Nov 12 04:03
                                                                                                                I have a Samsung BD player and this workaround works for me...

                                                                                                                If you put ANY Blu-Ray disc in the player, let it start up, then stop it, you can stream any copied BD movie without Cinavia protection interfering with the audio playback.

                                                                                                                I heard of this workaround for the PS3, and it's worked for 3 movies so far.

                                                                                                                Not a permanent solution, but it does get around the issue.
                                                                                                                olyteddy
                                                                                                                Senior Moderator
                                                                                                                Posted on: 24 Nov 12 04:12
                                                                                                                  Almost a month later...Any progress?
                                                                                                                  Wombler
                                                                                                                  Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                                  Posted on: 24 Nov 12 20:13
                                                                                                                    Quote:
                                                                                                                    Originally Posted by JW_7378
                                                                                                                    I have a Samsung BD player and this workaround works for me...

                                                                                                                    If you put ANY Blu-Ray disc in the player, let it start up, then stop it, you can stream any copied BD movie without Cinavia protection interfering with the audio playback.

                                                                                                                    I heard of this workaround for the PS3, and it's worked for 3 movies so far.

                                                                                                                    Not a permanent solution, but it does get around the issue.
                                                                                                                    Are they definitely Cinavia infected movies you're streaming to the Samsung?


                                                                                                                    Wombler
                                                                                                                    Wombler
                                                                                                                    Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                                    Posted on: 24 Nov 12 20:19
                                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                                      Originally Posted by olyteddy
                                                                                                                      Almost a month later...Any progress?
                                                                                                                      There's been nothing that I'm aware of since this announcement on the 5th of November.


                                                                                                                      Wombler
                                                                                                                      Liggy
                                                                                                                      Senior Administrator
                                                                                                                      Posted on: 25 Nov 12 08:06
                                                                                                                        They announced the release of DVD Ranger 5 - but still without the Cinavia extension.
                                                                                                                        Wombler
                                                                                                                        Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                                        Posted on: 25 Nov 12 13:02
                                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                                          Originally Posted by Liggy
                                                                                                                          They announced the release of DVD Ranger 5 - but still without the Cinavia extension.
                                                                                                                          Yeah I noticed that too.

                                                                                                                          It seems they've prepared the software for the Cinavia module but it's not ready yet and there's still not even a rough indication as to when that's likely to be or any detail on their progress.

                                                                                                                          Kind of strange really given they were so specific about the original release date.


                                                                                                                          Wombler
                                                                                                                          mrloren
                                                                                                                          MyCE Senior Member
                                                                                                                          Posted on: 05 Dec 12 03:47
                                                                                                                            Quote:
                                                                                                                            Originally Posted by Liggy
                                                                                                                            Probably nothing of the above. I often didn't even find much time to do the firmware patching and my skills are far away from being good enough to shift to some even more complicated hacking. But that's a little off-topic here
                                                                                                                            Make firmware for Blu-Ray players that don't have Cinavia in it.
                                                                                                                            mrloren
                                                                                                                            MyCE Senior Member
                                                                                                                            Posted on: 05 Dec 12 05:22
                                                                                                                              Quote:
                                                                                                                              Originally Posted by Steve33
                                                                                                                              Actually this could sometime in the future affect all of us as hardware models fail and need to be replaced.
                                                                                                                              ...3 posts so far, wow...
                                                                                                                              And I have people to PM me asking how to get around or defeat cinavia.


                                                                                                                              I am looking for a couple of either new in box or good used Sony BDP-S480/580. I have the last good firmware for this player on CD.
                                                                                                                              Wombler
                                                                                                                              Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                                              Posted on: 05 Dec 12 21:58
                                                                                                                                Quote:
                                                                                                                                Originally Posted by mrloren
                                                                                                                                I am looking for a couple of either new in box or good used Sony BDP-S480/580. I have the last good firmware for this player on CD.
                                                                                                                                Getting hold of the firmware is the easy bit.

                                                                                                                                It's likely that downgrading the players can only be achieved by flashing the firmware though, as they deliberately try to make this impossible for end users.


                                                                                                                                Wombler
                                                                                                                                olyteddy
                                                                                                                                Senior Moderator
                                                                                                                                Posted on: 06 Dec 12 03:38
                                                                                                                                  Non-reversible firmware is pretty common. My HDHomeRun tuner has no rollback firmware. It's required to keep CableCard certification. Wouldn't surprise me if that's also an AACS requirement.
                                                                                                                                  mrloren
                                                                                                                                  MyCE Senior Member
                                                                                                                                  Posted on: 06 Dec 12 03:55
                                                                                                                                    No need to down grade the Sony X80 players. these were made in 2011 and early 2012. As long as no one has upgrade the firmware they will be good. I have the last good firmware saved for these players.
                                                                                                                                    olyteddy
                                                                                                                                    Senior Moderator
                                                                                                                                    Posted on: 27 Dec 12 01:07
                                                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                                                      Originally Posted by http://www.dvd2hd.com/2012/09/21/dvd-and-blu-ray-copying-without-cinavia/#comment-1422
                                                                                                                                      Pixbyte has chosen the release date for the DVD-Ranger 5 with Cinavia module to be 10/31/2012 (Halloween). At the moment, the solution is being tested by well known people in the world of copying. Approx. 55% of all reported Blu-ray Region A/B disks and DVDs have been successfully tested so far. It will be also tested on PS3, various Blu-ray players and PowerDVD.
                                                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                                                      Originally Posted by http://www.dvd2hd.com/2012/12/17/dvd-ranger-5-0-1-4-released/
                                                                                                                                      DVD-Ranger 5 comes with a big amount of improvements and fixes. This version contains the Interface for CinEx but not CinEx itself.
                                                                                                                                      Still VaporWare I see. I hope none of our users have gotten suckered into pre-buying this farce. Call me cynical, but I believe that if it's 'too good to be true' it probably is.
                                                                                                                                      Steve33
                                                                                                                                      MyCE Member
                                                                                                                                      Posted on: 27 Dec 12 06:54
                                                                                                                                        Quote:
                                                                                                                                        Originally Posted by olyteddy
                                                                                                                                        Still VaporWare I see. I hope none of our users have gotten suckered into pre-buying this farce. Call me cynical, but I believe that if it's 'too good to be true' it probably is.
                                                                                                                                        Well there were some of us trying to warn about this pre-buy deal they had going which I was one that tried to warn.
                                                                                                                                        Yet some thought it negative of us...no we were simply not taken in by what had the markings of a hoax.

                                                                                                                                        Hmm...positive thinking is ok but sometimes we must insist on some form of reality.
                                                                                                                                        That... think only good positive thoughts and let's just "get along" is really stupid.
                                                                                                                                        chaotyk
                                                                                                                                        New Member
                                                                                                                                        Posted on: 30 Dec 12 21:37
                                                                                                                                          i have an idea...hear me out..

                                                                                                                                          yeah, like the discovery of pinicillin, save millions of live. and discovered purely by accident, because a scientist was messy and left a sandwich out so long it molded. found the moldy bread, piece of mold on bread touched his bacteria sample and killed the bacteria. he goes "Dafaq !" checks it out and the bread mold is secreting a goo. and thats how antibiotics were born.

                                                                                                                                          maybe someone cud take the audio from a movie, make a mess of it randomly and see if when u put it back together maybe cinivia gets fubar'd along the way. something that is not expected to be done to audio is often reversible thru an opposite audio effect, so two common effects may very well remove cinivia.

                                                                                                                                          so i'm willing to try it somebody give me a file that u know for sure has cinivia, and i'll see wat i can do. i never fail when it comes to stuff like this. somebody check around and send me something cinivia protected.

                                                                                                                                          btw , i use xbox 360, cuz ps3 is pathetic...and of course xbox user have never had cinivia problems...
                                                                                                                                          but all the same, i want to be the guy that destroys cinivia as this is an abomination that must be killed before it multiplies.

                                                                                                                                          anybody can go ahead and e-mail me: pm me something preferably e-mail:
                                                                                                                                          no spam, i'll hunt u down if u spam me...
                                                                                                                                          Kerry56
                                                                                                                                          Administrator
                                                                                                                                          Posted on: 30 Dec 12 21:59
                                                                                                                                            ^Personal email addresses are not allowed in the open forum.
                                                                                                                                            chaotyk
                                                                                                                                            New Member
                                                                                                                                            Posted on: 30 Dec 12 22:53
                                                                                                                                              Quote:
                                                                                                                                              Originally Posted by Kerry56
                                                                                                                                              ^Personal email addresses are not allowed in the open forum.
                                                                                                                                              okay... and somebody pm'd me a copy of cinivia protected ted, checked in virtual Ps3, and it is indeed cinivia protected, 6 mins in it stopped playing with error messages, so i'm about to go to work on it right now...i post result in a few hours or however long it takes me...
                                                                                                                                              ShaveIce
                                                                                                                                              New Member
                                                                                                                                              Posted on: 31 Dec 12 23:37
                                                                                                                                                Good luck to you chaotyk. This cinivia thing is such a pain. Although my kids find it humorous that if you change the year in the date, it starts working again (only for about 20 min and then you have to do it again). Anyone know why that even works? I'm technologically impaired =P
                                                                                                                                                chaotyk
                                                                                                                                                New Member
                                                                                                                                                Posted on: 01 Jan 13 01:51
                                                                                                                                                  no clue as to why the year change works, but i've have had an interesting journey so far in my cinavia endeavor. so far i learned that it is hard to rip the audio from the video without some kind of loss of quality, then i learned that my good old vlc player had the solution to that. then i found that audacity wudn't open the resulting file so i had to make it into a mp4 audio file, so the file is still super high quality, then i found the little secret messages that cinavia is hiding in the audio. using audacity i found that cinavia embeds three signals, one at 15khz range, one at 20khz range, and finally one at 22khz range, these three signals pulse in and out, each using a different pattern that makes no sense, but when u combine them the pattern is actually pretty awesome, for two reasons, one it's backwards, two when turned around and played tells watever is playing it to stop in very straight forward terms..."!! :.Cinavia:.Stop Drive Rotation:.Disrupt Playback:.Display Error Message #2:. !!" the Bluray Disc player then Does As it's told, and stops and displays preloaded Error Message #2. it works on the bluray player as if u had hit a button on the remote control. so wat i did was used my own plugs in audacity to create a flanger at 15,20,and 22khz. this cause it to read as a normal part of the movie. i then saved it the file, and put it back together using vlc. and then the resulting file was Ted.avi with the new audio sync'd and a file size about 1.32gb, i the wrote it to minidvd-r, dropped it in my friends Ps3 and watched in awe as the movie played from start to finish, sounded completely normal and never got an error message. well as u can imagine i celebrated, then used his bluray player next, with slightly different results, the movie ted start with the usual universal studios logo, then pauses, the screen turns green, pixelates goes back to normal then to my amazement resumed play seemlessly as if i had imagine it, and continued all the way thru the movie no problems, then right before the end credits finished well after it had showed the names of cast and crew, it did the same thing. i believe there may be little header marks on the beginning and end of the file's video as well, but luckly without the audio triggers they become useless. so to wrap up this little experiment....F$%* Y&* !! Cinavia..I Win !! but, only for the movie ted , i still needs to try this on a couple other cinavia protected files just to be sure.. oh and Btw, i found out that i can physically hear the 15khz pattern and the 20khz, but no matter how loud i played it i cudn't hear the 22khz pattern, dunno why but watever, thot i wud mention it.
                                                                                                                                                  olyteddy
                                                                                                                                                  Senior Moderator
                                                                                                                                                  Posted on: 01 Jan 13 04:03
                                                                                                                                                    Quote:
                                                                                                                                                    Originally Posted by chaotyk
                                                                                                                                                    no clue as to why the year change works, but i've have had an interesting journey so far in my cinavia endeavor.......I Win !! but, only for the movie ted , i still needs to try this on a couple other cinavia protected files just to be sure.. oh and Btw, i found out that i can physically hear the 15khz pattern and the 20khz, but no matter how loud i played it i cudn't hear the 22khz pattern, dunno why but watever, thot i wud mention it.
                                                                                                                                                    Interesting story, but I believe it is fantasy. Cinavia is present in movie theater soundtracks and can be picked up with a cell phone mic. I doubt a phone mic goes much beyond 12KHz, let alone 20 or 22 KHz.
                                                                                                                                                    CDan
                                                                                                                                                    MyCE Resident
                                                                                                                                                    Posted on: 01 Jan 13 06:02
                                                                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                                                                      Originally Posted by ShaveIce
                                                                                                                                                      Good luck to you chaotyk. This cinivia thing is such a pain. Although my kids find it humorous that if you change the year in the date, it starts working again (only for about 20 min and then you have to do it again). Anyone know why that even works? I'm technologically impaired =P
                                                                                                                                                      You should be able to watch in 20 min chunks just by powering off the player and starting up again where you left off. That's by design.
                                                                                                                                                      Seán
                                                                                                                                                      Senior Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                                                                      Posted on: 01 Jan 13 11:28
                                                                                                                                                        This does explain some reports of success by converting the audio sampling frequency to 32kHz, as it would kill the 20kHz and 22kHz pulses. The 15kHz pulse would probably be cut off or at least be attenuated due to the low pass filter usually applied when down-converting the sampling rate, which is done to prevent sound artefacts near the upper frequency cut off of the lower sample rate.

                                                                                                                                                        It's quite likely that cinema films use much lower frequency pulses, possibly even at the low end, e.g. 50Hz that would unlikely be heard during other audio and if heard, we would just ignore as just being a power hum or resonance.
                                                                                                                                                        Wombler
                                                                                                                                                        Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                                                                        Posted on: 01 Jan 13 16:39
                                                                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                                                                          Originally Posted by ShaveIce
                                                                                                                                                          Good luck to you chaotyk. This cinivia thing is such a pain. Although my kids find it humorous that if you change the year in the date, it starts working again (only for about 20 min and then you have to do it again). Anyone know why that even works? I'm technologically impaired =P
                                                                                                                                                          If I understand you correctly then it's because of the Cinavia 'windowing model'.

                                                                                                                                                          See this post for details.


                                                                                                                                                          Wombler
                                                                                                                                                          tubebar
                                                                                                                                                          MyCE Member
                                                                                                                                                          Posted on: 14 Jan 13 08:13
                                                                                                                                                            Unfortunately it's not that simple as Cinavia is an "analog" watermark, so you can't search for a set hex string. If this claim is true, the software would still need to read the audio files at 1x (just like players do) in order to detect and remove the mark. We know that if you play the audio faster then 1x (say 3 or 4x) Cinivaia won't be detected by the player, so it is safe to assume the software will have to work the same way
                                                                                                                                                            debro
                                                                                                                                                            Blown to smitherines
                                                                                                                                                            Posted on: 14 Jan 13 22:32
                                                                                                                                                              Quote:
                                                                                                                                                              Originally Posted by tubebar
                                                                                                                                                              Unfortunately it's not that simple as Cinavia is an "analog" watermark, so you can't search for a set hex string. If this claim is true, the software would still need to read the audio files at 1x (just like players do) in order to detect and remove the mark. We know that if you play the audio faster then 1x (say 3 or 4x) Cinivaia won't be detected by the player, so it is safe to assume the software will have to work the same way
                                                                                                                                                              Absolute b******* regarding "analogue" watermarks.
                                                                                                                                                              You might as well claim that MP3's need to be converted at 1x also.

                                                                                                                                                              A fourier analysis of any digital audio bitstream will show the present signal frequencies, whether the CPU processes it in realtime or 1000x realtime.

                                                                                                                                                              If you know what you are looking for, you can remove it.

                                                                                                                                                              The problem is:
                                                                                                                                                              1) Fourier analysis takes up lots of CPU time, hence difficulty getting enough CPU time to find the cinavia signal.
                                                                                                                                                              2) Only Cinavia engineers *actually* know what they are looking for.
                                                                                                                                                              3) It's not a simple inaudible frequency injection into the original signal, it's more complex.
                                                                                                                                                              Steve33
                                                                                                                                                              MyCE Member
                                                                                                                                                              Posted on: 15 Jan 13 01:07
                                                                                                                                                                What is a surprise to me is hackers or those who write a lot of our freeware/ open source program haven't taken a bigger interest in
                                                                                                                                                                beating this cp.
                                                                                                                                                                In the past, many take to the challenge simply because it is a challenge....
                                                                                                                                                                Yet the short answer to that is most bypass it by playing video from hard drives or use older model bd players.
                                                                                                                                                                tubebar
                                                                                                                                                                MyCE Member
                                                                                                                                                                Posted on: 02 Feb 13 13:02
                                                                                                                                                                  Quote:
                                                                                                                                                                  Originally Posted by debro
                                                                                                                                                                  Absolute b******* regarding "analogue" watermarks.
                                                                                                                                                                  You might as well claim that MP3's need to be converted at 1x also.

                                                                                                                                                                  A fourier analysis of any digital audio bitstream will show the present signal frequencies, whether the CPU processes it in realtime or 1000x realtime.

                                                                                                                                                                  If you know what you are looking for, you can remove it.

                                                                                                                                                                  The problem is:
                                                                                                                                                                  1) Fourier analysis takes up lots of CPU time, hence difficulty getting enough CPU time to find the cinavia signal.
                                                                                                                                                                  2) Only Cinavia engineers *actually* know what they are looking for.
                                                                                                                                                                  3) It's not a simple inaudible frequency injection into the original signal, it's more complex.
                                                                                                                                                                  Have you read the patents? It is analog signal, so not sure WTF you are talking about.

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