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DVD-Ranger CinEx module beta tested – beats Cinavia

Posted at 07 August 2013 14:41 CEST by Jan Willem Aldershoff

DVD-Ranger has shown us a working version of their Cinavia module CinEx. Using this module it’s possible to backup Blu-ray discs that are protected with the audio watermarking technology Cinavia. This copy protection is mandatory on Blu-ray players since 2012.

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The CinEx module from DVD-Ranger is in Beta but we have confirmed that it indeed bypasses the Cinavia protection. Unfortunately the audio quality of the copied movie is far from perfect, but the  lead developer of the software has told us that he and his team are now at the point where they  know how to improve the audio quality considerably. To prove their understanding of Cinavia, the developers also released a whitepaper providing more details on the protection.

Our test was conducted by forum administrator and video expert Kerry56. For the test he used Arcsoft TotalMedia Theater. This Blu-ray playback software is known to detect the Cinavia watermark.  Backups of a movie protected with Cinavia will mute the audio after about 20 minutes and show a Cinavia message. Kerry56 created a backup of a Blu-ray disc with DVD-Ranger and CinEx, this backup passed the 20 minutes mark. The entire movie was played and again no sign of Cinavia.

To make sure the combination of the Blu-ray movie and Arcsoft TotalMedia Theater really triggers the protection, a backup of the disc with regular Blu-ray backup software (without CinEx) was created. As expected this backup indeed triggered Cinavia protection. This means that DVD-Ranger seems to have overcome their difficulties and is now ready to improve this beta version.

DVD-Ranger announced a working solution in September 2012 but had difficulties releasing the software. In May this year the company announced it was working on a new version of CinEx, due to the delay it was an heavily discussed subject on our forums and users doubted if the software would ever be released. A public Beta of CinEx will soon be released on the DVD-Ranger website.

Disuss this in our Movie Copy Forum.

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There are 75 comments

CDan
MyCE Resident
Posted on: 07 Aug 13 17:15
    Its impossible to get rid of Cinavia watermarks without decimating the audio quality. The best you can hope for is a lossy, compressed audio.
    readmetoo
    New Member
    Posted on: 07 Aug 13 19:09
      Yep the world at one time was thought to be flat and we didn't go to moon , Planes cant fly, the sound barrier couldn't be broken


      Bold statement can't be done it is impossible. Just think of all the geeks out there if they had just said It's impossible , what never could have been done!
      Steve33
      Moderator
      Posted on: 07 Aug 13 19:54
        Just curious, is this using a similar method that the Macrovision3500 guy posted not too long ago?
        His messes up the audio.

        If so, I could have developed a method before now.....

        His messes up the audio.
        CDan
        MyCE Resident
        Posted on: 07 Aug 13 20:32
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by readmetoo
          Yep the world at one time was thought to be flat and we didn't go to moon , Planes cant fly, the sound barrier couldn't be broken


          Bold statement can't be done it is impossible. Just think of all the geeks out there if they had just said It's impossible , what never could have been done!
          If you actually understand how Cinavia watermarks work, you'd know that it can't be removed without damaging the audio. It's the same as a video watermark - you can't remove it without removing the image itself.
          ChristineBCW
          MyCE Die Hard
          Posted on: 07 Aug 13 20:37
            This always reminds me of my favorite American poem... or at least, the last verse.

            "Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
            The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
            And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
            But there is no joy in Mudville..."
            alan1476
            Administrator, Software Editor and Head of Promotions
            Posted on: 07 Aug 13 21:58
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by ChristineBCW
              This always reminds me of my favorite American poem... or at least, the last verse.

              "Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
              The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
              And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
              But there is no joy in Mudville..."
              I heard that poem first hand in 1888 LOL.
              TSJnachos117
              MyCE Senior Member
              Posted on: 07 Aug 13 22:29
                The audio will probably be messed up at least to some extent. However, using a program like DVD-Ranger, it may eventually become possible to minimize the loss of quality, possibly even leaving the portions of audio that don't have Cinivia unmodified (that is, no de/recompression). Of course, there will always be quality loss when removing Cinivia, even with the best removal methods possible.

                If you really want to get rid of Cinivia, demand a refund of any movie you purchase that has this protection. If enough people do it, maybe Hollywood will finally get the hint. Of course, that's unlikely to happen, as it would require those who use the internet to rot their brains on Youtube cat vids to pay attention to the issues around them.
                DrageMester
                Retired Moderator
                Posted on: 07 Aug 13 22:42
                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by alan1476
                  I heard that poem first hand in 1888 LOL.
                  Back when you were only (...counting on fingers...) 412 years old, right?
                  CDan
                  MyCE Resident
                  Posted on: 08 Aug 13 00:13
                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by TSJnachos117
                    The audio will probably be messed up at least to some extent. However, using a program like DVD-Ranger, it may eventually become possible to minimize the loss of quality, possibly even leaving the portions of audio that don't have Cinivia unmodified (that is, no de/recompression). Of course, there will always be quality loss when removing Cinivia, even with the best removal methods possible.

                    If you really want to get rid of Cinivia, demand a refund of any movie you purchase that has this protection. If enough people do it, maybe Hollywood will finally get the hint. Of course, that's unlikely to happen, as it would require those who use the internet to rot their brains on Youtube cat vids to pay attention to the issues around them.
                    We're only talking about Sony Studios here. No body else is currently using Cinavia.

                    However, the watermark is present in the entire movie in any passages that have adequate S/N ratio to hide it. These re-encoding "solutions" are not detecting the watermark, or modifying it in any way. They simply obliterate it by compressing the audio - and the watermark with it.
                    Steve33
                    Moderator
                    Posted on: 08 Aug 13 02:52
                      I haven't seen any writeup where anyone actually knows anything about the watermark except what is posted officially...that is from the company that designed it.

                      CDan is correct, no devs. have seriously looked at the watermark hence we have no clue what it looks like.

                      We can assume it is in the audible hearing range since someone (idiot) could record a movie with a handheld....in places where there are stern warnings about the consequences....and the watermark would be in the recorded file.

                      Mics on handhelds do not have that dynamic of a range.

                      Perhaps one day there will be a cure but I wouldn't hold my breath.
                      Anyway, as it stands now, this watermark is more or less a nuisance since there are numerous ways to play a m2ts file without a BD player.

                      Any serious defeat of this watermark should be directed toward either hardware modification or a firmware mod, IMO.

                      I write this, sung to the tune of and replacing the lyrics of "blue skies".
                      CDan
                      MyCE Resident
                      Posted on: 08 Aug 13 05:19
                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Steve33
                        I haven't seen any writeup where anyone actually knows anything about the watermark except what is posted officially...that is from the company that designed it.

                        CDan is correct, no devs. have seriously looked at the watermark hence we have no clue what it looks like.
                        The info is available in white papers released by Verance. The watermark is actually created by altering the S/N ratio, which creates a "noise pulse". These pulses are strung together to create simple binary code, I forget how many bits but not many. Anyhow, that code contains the info needed for the decoder to identify the audio's source and of course the trigger for the protection. So in theory, audio from different sources might only trigger the protection in specific playback scenarios. The watermark is repeated throughout the movie in any area where the S/N ratio is sufficient to mask it from hearing - ie: louder parts. If it was placed in a silent part of the audio and you have your gear cranked up, you *might* hear the subtle pulsing of the noise level. The code is repeated over and over throughout the movie, so eventually it always gets picked up by the decoder. If you play the same protected audio over and over, you may find it triggers at slightly different points in the program each time, this is why.

                        What the conversion software is doing is simply compressing the audio - and the noise floor is raised which masks the watermark. Its not rocket science, you simply raise the noise floor or distort the audio till the decoder can no longer pick up the watermark. Brilliant.
                        Steve33
                        Moderator
                        Posted on: 08 Aug 13 05:38
                          I see where some speak of Phase shifts in the watermark.

                          Audio conversion alone will not mask the watermark.

                          It appears the audio needs to be screwed up fairly badly to keep the chip from picking it up watermark.
                          DoMiN8ToR
                          Management
                          Posted on: 08 Aug 13 09:47
                            What's even worse (I wrote this in this article too: http://www.myce.com/article/cinavia-...ilenced-68001/) that they can update the protection when it gets hacked too often and that they have other tricks that should make it hard to make a general circumvention method.

                            Still DVDFab and AnyDVD have found ways of dealing with it without audio degradation...
                            ChristineBCW
                            MyCE Die Hard
                            Posted on: 08 Aug 13 11:20
                              Sony & Friends might be considering an eventual split so that Audio and Video in movies are shipped separately. Surely, THIS will stop all piracy! They could, say, ship movies only in giant tin packages, big circular things... maybe use some kind of celluloidal strip or something, and isolate the picture into separate, chopped up photo-like cells. String them together in mile-long pieces of that celluloidal medium.

                              Then, issue the audio on some vinyl-esque substance - a big flat disk, perhaps.

                              You'd need to buy all this equipment, including giant cavernous rooms that could seat 500 or 800 people at a time!

                              Simply sync up the video-playback of those celluloidal strips and the spinning audio disk - voila! THAT would surely stop all piracy! (Of course, that didn't help Mr. George Romero back in 1969 when he ordered a few extra prints for one of his first projects. Hmmm...)

                              Now... if only Sony would get their accounting systems to observe honest and verifiable arithmetic so their signed artists would be paid what THEY were owed-!
                              DVDranger
                              MyCE Junior Member
                              Posted on: 08 Aug 13 11:49
                                It is really interresting to read all the posts here. Many people know everything better and they know every secret in detail, that some companies protect very hard. Really, really amazing.

                                1.) If all you guys know it better, where is your solution? Hmm, I never see any solution. Why not? Where is the solution from Slysoft or DVDFab? Never seen it.
                                2.) There are dozen of crazy audacity tries availabe. But to run dozen of filter over an audio file is not an solution, it is an desperate try. A hint: Use the original audio, invert it and remux it. Cinavia is gone.
                                3.) If you can read, we can read, detect and remove Cinavia. But it is not a simple binary code somewhere. It is scattered in the audio. If you can read, we remove it, but we also need to repair the audio.
                                4.) I think everyone knows that it is impossible to remove Cinavia without losing quality. If you want this, whatch your movie with VLC.

                                Recognize, we do not run filters on the audio, we remove cinavia from it. Then we use a filter to improve the quality. So it is not possible to update the Firmware and everything is ok. They have to update the whole protection technology to hide the watermark in their Cinavia solution.
                                ChristineBCW
                                MyCE Die Hard
                                Posted on: 08 Aug 13 14:35
                                  I'm happy that it's a perfect solution. I'm sure that, with the millions already sold, this product will sell tens of millions more. It's rather shocking the Defeat Of Cinavia is even a topic anymore, considering how wonderful this product is. It's similar to debating whether the auto-mo-BEEL will replace the horse-drawn wagon... or maybe, it's more like...

                                  http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7FUAwB_PH3...rY/s320/mp.jpg
                                  CDan
                                  MyCE Resident
                                  Posted on: 08 Aug 13 14:51
                                    Quote:
                                    Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                    Recognize, we do not run filters on the audio, ...... Then we use a filter to improve the quality.
                                    So which is it?
                                    Your credibility would improve if you didn't speak gibberish.

                                    Quote:
                                    we can read, detect and remove Cinavia
                                    That's stretching the truth quite a bit.
                                    DVDranger
                                    MyCE Junior Member
                                    Posted on: 08 Aug 13 15:26
                                      This is not stretching the truth this is fact and we can proof this. The problem is NOONE else here can proof anything he wrote.

                                      All you people think that Cinavia is a little peace inside the audio. Read our whitepaper. It is not a little peace that you can remove and have the quality. It is in the whole audio in different levels with different quality. And so in case of all this little parts it is very complicated to re-arrange the quality of the audio.

                                      We think our audio quality became very good. Sure, there is much work, but please tell me ANY, really ANY other solution and not all this F* audicity tryouts. You can destroy everything with an sledge.

                                      I suggest you read our white paper and then you give us a proof that we are wrong.

                                      CDAn, also you first comment shows your technical skills.
                                      1.) Audicity solutions do not remove Cinavia. They run plenty filters or strecht the playtime or whatever. But they run the filter on the Cinavia protected file.
                                      2.) DVD-Ranger removes Cinavia and THEN runs filters on the file to repair. Similar to psychoacoustics.
                                      3.) So I just suggest to read and not to combine two different things.
                                      ~Jethro~
                                      MyCE Resident
                                      Posted on: 08 Aug 13 19:36
                                        The bottom line is, does the audio sound as good after CinEx as before? The answer is, for now,no.
                                        DVDranger
                                        MyCE Junior Member
                                        Posted on: 08 Aug 13 20:28
                                          It's not particularly difficult to understand: If you take something out, the result is always different.
                                          Steve33
                                          Moderator
                                          Posted on: 08 Aug 13 21:26
                                            Just got through reading your white paper, interesting read.
                                            Strangely, I find myself in agreement with parts of it especially the part about this watermark situated in 400 to 4000 range.
                                            This makes perfect sense since handhelds audio recording range is limited.
                                            Some others claim the signal is above 6000 which wouldn't make sense.

                                            One question however, wouldn't it be much better to decompress the original audio and do your removal work so as not to damage the audio as much....before encoding it back to a compressed form?
                                            DVDranger
                                            MyCE Junior Member
                                            Posted on: 08 Aug 13 22:20
                                              Quote:
                                              wouldn't it be much better to decompress
                                              You mean to decode first?
                                              Steve33
                                              Moderator
                                              Posted on: 08 Aug 13 22:56
                                                Save to a uncompressed format.
                                                This is how A/V is worked on if minimum quality loss needs to be insured.
                                                Then files are processed with various filtering(s).
                                                Then files are encoded back to the necessary format/wrapper at the last step.
                                                I suppose though you would be aware of this.
                                                Perhaps this is what you are already doing...I wouldn't know the steps your software it taking to achieve the goal.
                                                DVDranger
                                                MyCE Junior Member
                                                Posted on: 08 Aug 13 23:51
                                                  Yes, we try not to give too many details.. The white paper is a huge source for all who are interrested in. But we do not want to give out the information how we work. I think the super heros at DVDFab or Slysoft have to find it out themself.
                                                  coolcolors
                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                  Posted on: 09 Aug 13 15:25
                                                    Quote:
                                                    Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                    But we do not want to give out the information how we work. I think the super heros at DVDFab or Slysoft have to find it out themself.
                                                    I think you should keep your opinions on how the insides works of either DVDFab or Slysoft away from your own problems. And instead focus on what your own software can and can not do. That would be the prudent thing to do. I would say they would have a better solution then what you come up with as well using your own deduction here.
                                                    Dr. Who
                                                    MyCE Resident
                                                    Posted on: 09 Aug 13 16:42
                                                      Quote:
                                                      Originally Posted by coolcolors
                                                      I think you should keep your opinions on how the insides works of either DVDFab or Slysoft away from your own problems. And instead focus on what your own software can and can not do. That would be the prudent thing to do. I would say they would have a better solution then what you come up with as well using your own deduction here.
                                                      Agreed.
                                                      DVDranger
                                                      MyCE Junior Member
                                                      Posted on: 09 Aug 13 16:50
                                                        DVDFab Brotherhood. Now we will get a fatwa?
                                                        cholla
                                                        MyCE Resident
                                                        Posted on: 09 Aug 13 17:15
                                                          Quote:
                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                          This is really cool guys. Now you say we have to give OUR WORK, OUR IDEAS, OUR PAIN, to the guys from DVDFab or Slysoft. HAHA. You are sooooo funny.
                                                          I was staying out of this as I have nothing with Cinavia.
                                                          Neither disk or player. My problem in the other thread was the DVDRanger software not providing what was promised.

                                                          What you interpreted from the last two posts wasn't what the posters said. Certainly not to me .
                                                          Basically what coolcolors posted was: Slysoft & DVDFab will have a software that works better than DVDRanger when they release it.
                                                          That remains to be seen . That they won't release it prematurely & have customers complaining it doesn't work or does work but poorly.

                                                          Show me one word that says DVDRanger should give any information to Slysoft or DVDFab .

                                                          It says: Advertise what your software can do . No more or less.

                                                          Leave what you think Slysoft or DVDFab may or may not be able to do out of it . Since you don't know where they are in their progress on Cinavia . No doubt they are working on a solution .

                                                          IMO it can't be done well with software but may get to a point that it is acceptable .

                                                          The real solution would be a hardware one. Since that would be illegal at least in terms of patent violations . I don't see that being used.

                                                          In other words if someone manufactured a drive that would bypass Cinavia & allow a copy . It couldn't be legally sold in most countries.
                                                          I'm surprised China hasn't manufactured one anyway.
                                                          DVDranger
                                                          MyCE Junior Member
                                                          Posted on: 09 Aug 13 17:22
                                                            Cholla.......you do not have really understood what Cinavia is. I really suggest to read available information. What you wrote is wrong in all points.

                                                            Fact is, until today there is no solution from DVDFab same with Slysoft. But we are working further and become better an better.

                                                            I do not know why you say that we can not do what we advertised. Explain what you mean in detals. We are happy about any report.
                                                            DVDranger
                                                            MyCE Junior Member
                                                            Posted on: 09 Aug 13 17:24
                                                              However, it seems to be a religion. In the past, nothing was better than DVDShrink. Now nothing is better than DVDFab. DVD-Ranger brings out the first Beta of CinEx, however, it is not DVDFab so it is basically wrong. People do not read information we prepared for them, they argue with wrong things to protect their god.
                                                              DVDranger
                                                              MyCE Junior Member
                                                              Posted on: 09 Aug 13 17:26
                                                                Iam now out of this discussion. Let see who will win finaly.
                                                                DrageMester
                                                                Retired Moderator
                                                                Posted on: 09 Aug 13 17:28
                                                                  Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                  DVDFab Brotherhood. Now we will get a fatwa?
                                                                  You really work very hard to to be a terrible marketing example for your company and its software.

                                                                  Every time you post aggressive and/or offensive stuff on the forums, people become less likely to want to buy any product that you're involved with.

                                                                  You really should think about what you post before you post it.
                                                                  Dr. Who
                                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                                  Posted on: 09 Aug 13 17:34
                                                                    Quote:
                                                                    Originally Posted by DrageMester
                                                                    You really work very hard to to be a terrible marketing example for your company and its software.

                                                                    Every time you post aggressive and/or offensive stuff on the forums, people become less likely to want to buy any product that you're involved with.

                                                                    You really should think about what you post before you post it.
                                                                    That's one of the few reasons I won't even try it.
                                                                    DVDranger
                                                                    MyCE Junior Member
                                                                    Posted on: 09 Aug 13 17:37
                                                                      I do not know that I was aggressive, but now you have even a gimmick to divert attention from our technical success and defame us.
                                                                      cholla
                                                                      MyCE Resident
                                                                      Posted on: 09 Aug 13 18:04
                                                                        Quote:
                                                                        Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                        Cholla What you wrote is wrong in all points.
                                                                        I had a much longer comment for some reason my "token" failed .
                                                                        I'm not doing it again.
                                                                        I don't agree with what I quoted above . I'm very seldom "wrong on all points".
                                                                        DoMiN8ToR
                                                                        Management
                                                                        Posted on: 09 Aug 13 18:21
                                                                          I think the tone of the discussion is becoming a bit aggressive on some occasions, so I urge anyone who doesn't yet, to take a deep breath and only post when you're calm.

                                                                          Some of you have raised valid questions and points so I'd love if we could continue in that direction.

                                                                          I fully understand that DVD-Ranger has to prove himself again after the initial announcements. It was about time for some proof, but now we have something in our hands. The question is, can it be improved, DVD-Ranger says yes, some of you are skeptical, either one will be right but unfortunately only time will tell.

                                                                          The good news is that at least a couple of companies are working on a solution, which is good for those who want to make a backup of their Blu-ray and got affected by Cinavia.
                                                                          DVDranger
                                                                          MyCE Junior Member
                                                                          Posted on: 09 Aug 13 18:52
                                                                            Yes, we are very interested into other releases.
                                                                            ChristineBCW
                                                                            MyCE Die Hard
                                                                            Posted on: 09 Aug 13 20:33
                                                                              Cholla, I don't think you're wrong. Now, if you were representing a software company that couldn't repeatedly spell other software products' properly, that would be wrong.

                                                                              If you were representing a software company and issued snide insults about other software that DID deliver their products in a timely fashion over years, that would be wrong.

                                                                              If you were representing a software company and demanded that readers do research without providing hyperlinks all over the place, that would be wrong.

                                                                              How many strikes did Casey get back in 1888?
                                                                              DVDranger
                                                                              MyCE Junior Member
                                                                              Posted on: 09 Aug 13 22:29
                                                                                Just to repeat: ...... but now you have even a gimmick to divert attention from our technical success and defame us.
                                                                                ChristineBCW
                                                                                MyCE Die Hard
                                                                                Posted on: 10 Aug 13 12:41
                                                                                  "defame US"?!! That's rich. So, you're trying to get 'your company' to take the blame for your refusal to spell AUDACITY properly?

                                                                                  You're trying to get 'your company' to take the blame for your insulting-attempts at software companies that DO produce popular software and that's been widely available for years? That's your company's fault?!!

                                                                                  A raconteur FOR Cinavia couldn't degrade 'your company' more than these comments from you. However, there's no leedvermaak here, no epicharicacy at all - we all welcome the defeat of any media company that infects our purchasing power to prevent our entertainment choices.
                                                                                  DVDRangerForum
                                                                                  MyCE Rookie
                                                                                  Posted on: 10 Aug 13 15:06
                                                                                    Unbelievable a company has come up with a documented White Paper beta solution against Cinavia

                                                                                    They said it is not perfect

                                                                                    Instead of cheers, you still try to and disclaim the success of the issue.

                                                                                    If your a coder or a major computer science jump on the band wagon and help the continued progress.

                                                                                    The idea is to defeat Cinavia
                                                                                    DVDranger
                                                                                    MyCE Junior Member
                                                                                    Posted on: 10 Aug 13 16:04
                                                                                      ChristineBCW ... defame is absolute the right phrase. Because we do not blame Audicity, we blame the solution people tried with Audicity. This is a really big difference.
                                                                                      So it still the same...defame, diss, defame, diss.....
                                                                                      cholla
                                                                                      MyCE Resident
                                                                                      Posted on: 10 Aug 13 17:06
                                                                                        I agree with ChristineBCW your refusal to correctly spell another companies software correctly says something about you .
                                                                                        You are purposely misspelling Audacity.
                                                                                        Maybe this will clarify how irritating that is .
                                                                                        DVD-WRONGER can't remove Sinabia without destroying the audqualitylty.
                                                                                        Or should that be blu-ray-WRONGER .
                                                                                        DVDranger
                                                                                        MyCE Junior Member
                                                                                        Posted on: 10 Aug 13 17:06
                                                                                          Audacity -> Audicity ... shame on us, but the is this the reason why we get dissed? In fact you cannot remove Cinavia with Audacity, you can use the Audacity sledge to destory the signal. But look at the history, all this tryouts were catched by the makers of Cinavia because it was not removed.
                                                                                          DVDranger
                                                                                          MyCE Junior Member
                                                                                          Posted on: 10 Aug 13 17:09
                                                                                            Cholla....this is really the peak on the story. You diss and defame us because I wrote a software wrong. HAHA...the topic is about Cinavia. And because you cannot diss us with our Cinavia solution you start now to diss and defame us with those bullsh* like a wrong written software name. Unbelievable....
                                                                                            DVDranger
                                                                                            MyCE Junior Member
                                                                                            Posted on: 10 Aug 13 17:13
                                                                                              The amazing on all this is, we offered a solution, not perfect but proofed by MyCe. We offered a white paper with many details. where is the technical discussion? There was not 1 mail in my inbox about technical questions or maybe suggestions...
                                                                                              cholla
                                                                                              MyCE Resident
                                                                                              Posted on: 10 Aug 13 17:28
                                                                                                No it isn't the only reason you get dissed.
                                                                                                It is people taking notice of your purposeful dissing another software by misspelling their company name.
                                                                                                I didn't see anyone here claim that Audacity did a good quality job of removing Cinavia . Apparently it does a poor job but is playable . I wouldn't want to listen to the audio that way but I guess some have more tolerance for that.

                                                                                                On the same note: I haven't seen any posts by other than DVDranger that DVD-Ranger software has removed Cinavia & had equal audio quality to the original blu-ray disc either. I guess it is some better (according to what I've read on this forum) but not there yet.

                                                                                                Will it get there . I don't know. I'm not a programmer. I'm also not a DVD-Ranger customer & for now won't be.
                                                                                                I haven't studied Cinavia. I'm certain I don't know exactly how it works.
                                                                                                I can figure out that whatever you want to call the process correctly.
                                                                                                It needs to remove the "encryption" that is the signal that the blu-ray players pick up that causes them to stop the audio. So that a copy can be made that also has this removed.
                                                                                                Or it could be that it needs the old signal removed & a new signal added that tells the player to continue playing the audio from a burned disc.
                                                                                                Myself I think "watermark" is a poor term for this "encryption".A term much better suited to images.
                                                                                                Albert
                                                                                                Senior Moderator
                                                                                                Posted on: 10 Aug 13 20:47
                                                                                                  Off topic, a personal request:

                                                                                                  Folks, I just want to point out that we are trying to be fair. We are trying to report all developments regarding this Cinavia situation, just like we report other developments about storage & tech in general. You all understand that, I'm sure.

                                                                                                  It would be nice if we could report these developments, have users comment honestly, and move on with a meaningful dialogue. It would be nice if this could happen without the threads/news stories being dragged into a meaningless, mind-numbing monologue (because, really, it's not a two-sided conversation) regarding who has defamed whom.

                                                                                                  Some of the conversation up to this point has been silly, childish, and petty, and I believe it is no longer worth the time it'd take to reply to the childishness. If everyone could simply do his or her best to stay on topic and not feed the fire, it would be highly appreciated. For the sake of the site, please do your best to make the site a positive place. Thank you.
                                                                                                  cholla
                                                                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                                                                  Posted on: 10 Aug 13 22:35
                                                                                                    @ Albert , There is only one member in this thread that is out of line .
                                                                                                    That is DVDranger.

                                                                                                    As soon as everyone didn't jump in a give a big Huray .

                                                                                                    Then came the everyone is dissing & defaming us from DVDranger when any negative points were posted.
                                                                                                    All the news isn't postiive .

                                                                                                    Have you seen a post by one regular forum member that has tried DVD-Ranger Cinex module & said "It works great"?

                                                                                                    Then I'm told what I wrote is "wrong in all points" again by DVDranger.

                                                                                                    That's not discussion it's finger pointing & to put it politely incorrect.

                                                                                                    See if you can find even one line in what I posted that this was DVDRanger's response to >That can be proved to be wrong.

                                                                                                    I think DVDranger has been treated fairly by the forum members.
                                                                                                    He can't respond to members like he does & not expect to get some of it back.

                                                                                                    I hope I speak for the majority here in this.
                                                                                                    CDan
                                                                                                    MyCE Resident
                                                                                                    Posted on: 10 Aug 13 23:08
                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by cholla
                                                                                                      I think DVDranger has been treated fairly by the forum members.
                                                                                                      He can't respond to members like he does & not expect to get some of it back.

                                                                                                      I hope I speak for the majority here in this.
                                                                                                      You do. Its hard to take anyone seriously when they behave so badly. The software itself has almost no practical use.
                                                                                                      Albert
                                                                                                      Senior Moderator
                                                                                                      Posted on: 11 Aug 13 03:45
                                                                                                        Quote:
                                                                                                        Originally Posted by cholla
                                                                                                        I think DVDranger has been treated fairly by the forum members.
                                                                                                        He can't respond to members like he does & not expect to get some of it back.

                                                                                                        I hope I speak for the majority here in this.
                                                                                                        Quote:
                                                                                                        Originally Posted by CDan
                                                                                                        You do. Its hard to take anyone seriously when they behave so badly. The software itself has almost no practical use.
                                                                                                        You are both correct. And thanks to all the real CD Freaks ... real Myce Freaks ...original members for being reasonably polite about this.
                                                                                                        Macrovision3500
                                                                                                        MyCE Resident
                                                                                                        Posted on: 11 Aug 13 12:45
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          ...If all you guys know it better, where is your solution? Hmm, I never see any solution. Why not?
                                                                                                          I posted a solution over a month ago but this one has had more work done to it.
                                                                                                          http://club.myce.com/f62/improved-ci...dacity-333348/
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          Where is the solution from Slysoft or DVDFab? Never seen it.
                                                                                                          To be fair, DVDFab's solution has been made useless by Sony on 4.10 + newer firmwares.
                                                                                                          As for Slysoft cinavia removal only works on bluray player softwares. I would use VLC for BD playback.
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          There are dozen of crazy audacity tries availabe.
                                                                                                          dozens? Last time I checked there was only one.
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          A hint: Use the original audio, invert it and remux it. Cinavia is gone.
                                                                                                          Now we know.
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          I think everyone knows that it is impossible to remove Cinavia without losing quality.
                                                                                                          That remains to be seen. It is possible to remove cinavia with little to no damage if you know
                                                                                                          what cinavia is.
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          The problem is NOONE else here can proof anything he wrote.
                                                                                                          irrelevant
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          Audicity solutions do not remove Cinavia.
                                                                                                          Have you even tried it?
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          ...were catched by the makers of Cinavia because it was not removed.
                                                                                                          Even if the people at verance would see our removal methods we provide theres isnt much they can do. Its called freedom of speech. Protected by our constitution.
                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                          The amazing on all this is, we offered a solution, not perfect but proofed by MyCe.
                                                                                                          I didn't even have to verify it, theres no chance in hell cinavia or any audio watermark can survive in that audio. On positive, note it does seem future proof but it does come with a price.
                                                                                                          Wombler
                                                                                                          Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                          Posted on: 11 Aug 13 22:06
                                                                                                            Quote:
                                                                                                            Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                            Fact is, until today there is no solution from DVDFab same with Slysoft.
                                                                                                            Both Slysoft and DVDFab have had solutions for some time now based on different methods of circumventing the detection routines.

                                                                                                            The DVDFab method creates a protected backup which fools the Blu-ray player into thinking it's an original disc.

                                                                                                            Firmware upgrades mean this no longer works on upgraded PS3s but it still functions on standalone players that support BDMV-REC discs.

                                                                                                            AnyDVD blocks the Cinavia routines in software players so you can view on a PC or stream to a TV anywhere else in your house.

                                                                                                            DVDFab, AnyDVD, and DVDRanger may all use different methods, but they are all solutions with varying degrees of success.


                                                                                                            Wombler
                                                                                                            ChristineBCW
                                                                                                            MyCE Die Hard
                                                                                                            Posted on: 13 Aug 13 13:42
                                                                                                              It's still strange to me that Cinavia was imposed on all DVD Player manufacturers as an enforced new standard. Verance isn't big enough to do this. Sony-Philips has a history of buying their way into standards, so I assume this 'demanded change' came from Sony.

                                                                                                              But why did hardware makers fall for this? They get nothing by the individual sale of BluRay disks. Or do they? Have they finally been given a slice? (And how much could it be? Fractions of a percentage, if that.)

                                                                                                              I don't understand why those hardware makers - selling fewer units at ever-lowering prices - would spend money on additional licensing fees. And the same with the Disk Producers - paying Verance anything is money stripped away. (Of course, it's probably a tax-write-off, making taxpayers cover "cost of business" fees. Grrr - AND they raise the price on consumers, too. Double-billing... grrr)
                                                                                                              Wombler
                                                                                                              Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                              Posted on: 13 Aug 13 14:37
                                                                                                                It has only been enforced on Blu-ray players as part of the AACS specs.

                                                                                                                Dedicated DVD players don't contain or even have any method of understanding AACS.


                                                                                                                Wombler
                                                                                                                ChristineBCW
                                                                                                                MyCE Die Hard
                                                                                                                Posted on: 13 Aug 13 14:50
                                                                                                                  Here's the Wiki on AACS and it says this was a standard for post-DVD disc distribution, and lists a "consortium" of companies, including Intel, IBM, Toshiba which are hardware and software makers, but have nothing to do directly with Media Copyrights or direct benefits from Media sales.

                                                                                                                  This leads me back to my confusion - "Why did this get forced down hardware makers' throats? Why did Toshiba, IBM and Intel agree to this consortium AACS standard?" I don't know. Certainly, Money is in there, somewhere.

                                                                                                                  I can understand how Sony, Disney and Warners (listed as consortium members) think they benefit from restrictive distribution issues.

                                                                                                                  It may have been one of those In For A Penny, In For A Pound groups that were dealing with many other issues and 'pork-barrelling' topics that are solely for the benefit of a few were additives to balance other sole-benefits for others.

                                                                                                                  The strange-bedfellows aspect of this, however, gives no assurance that a non-BluRay successor won't be laden with similar infections. There hasn't been any commercial move that has brought more entertainment to more people with no restrictions, except for the so-called "pirates". Every vendor seems to think their future depends on restrictions, not more or better entertainment for consumers.
                                                                                                                  cholla
                                                                                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                                                                                  Posted on: 13 Aug 13 16:26
                                                                                                                    I think it all has to do with patents & rights to play blu-ray discs.
                                                                                                                    If a blu-ray drive manufacturer doesn't agree to use the AACS standard &
                                                                                                                    pay for the rights thay can't legally manufacture & sell the drives.

                                                                                                                    In the US such drives would be contraband . Or I think that's how the government would go after them . There would be fines for any wholesaler or retailer that sold them.

                                                                                                                    If I got this wrong then someone please correct me.
                                                                                                                    ChristineBCW
                                                                                                                    MyCE Die Hard
                                                                                                                    Posted on: 13 Aug 13 16:33
                                                                                                                      Yes, monopolism, not capitalism. Companies getting entitlements passed as laws instead of earning money from good products. The Strange-Bedfellowism spreads and there's no NSA to blame.

                                                                                                                      (I am not enjoying the CBS vs TimeWarner Blackout. This is the result of the cable companies getting 2002-2003 'entitlements' from the US regime by disallowing direct broadband competition. For the other two - ComCast and AT&T - are sharpening their pork-barrelling knives, hoping their collusion-ally TimeWarner can use regional monopolism to defeat CBS in the consumers' eyes.)

                                                                                                                      None of this, you realize, improves my cynicism. I think I need to dive back into 14th Century's tales of the Black Plague to reassure myself that this world isn't getting 'worser and worser'.
                                                                                                                      cholla
                                                                                                                      MyCE Resident
                                                                                                                      Posted on: 13 Aug 13 16:39
                                                                                                                        "Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set"
                                                                                                                        Wombler
                                                                                                                        Administrator & Reviewer
                                                                                                                        Posted on: 13 Aug 13 18:57
                                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                                          Originally Posted by ChristineBCW
                                                                                                                          Here's the Wiki on AACS and it says this was a standard for post-DVD disc distribution, and lists a "consortium" of companies, including Intel, IBM, Toshiba which are hardware and software makers, but have nothing to do directly with Media Copyrights or direct benefits from Media sales.

                                                                                                                          This leads me back to my confusion - "Why did this get forced down hardware makers' throats? Why did Toshiba, IBM and Intel agree to this consortium AACS standard?" I don't know. Certainly, Money is in there, somewhere.

                                                                                                                          I can understand how Sony, Disney and Warners (listed as consortium members) think they benefit from restrictive distribution issues.

                                                                                                                          It may have been one of those In For A Penny, In For A Pound groups that were dealing with many other issues and 'pork-barrelling' topics that are solely for the benefit of a few were additives to balance other sole-benefits for others.

                                                                                                                          The strange-bedfellows aspect of this, however, gives no assurance that a non-BluRay successor won't be laden with similar infections. There hasn't been any commercial move that has brought more entertainment to more people with no restrictions, except for the so-called "pirates". Every vendor seems to think their future depends on restrictions, not more or better entertainment for consumers.
                                                                                                                          Yeah AACS is only for post DVD technologies or in other words Blu-ray.

                                                                                                                          Cinavia is included on certain DVDs but will only be triggered on Blu-ray players that can detect it. Dedicated DVD players don't have AACS capability.

                                                                                                                          AACS was formulated and determined by the original consortium and Cinavia had never even been envisaged back then.

                                                                                                                          It was only tacked on as an add-in relatively recently as the result of pressure from those with a vested interest such as Sony and the MPAA etc.

                                                                                                                          As cholla basically says it's all down to patents and if you want to produce a Blu-ray player it has to support AACS which now also includes Cinavia.


                                                                                                                          Wombler
                                                                                                                          CDan
                                                                                                                          MyCE Resident
                                                                                                                          Posted on: 13 Aug 13 19:17
                                                                                                                            Quote:
                                                                                                                            Originally Posted by cholla
                                                                                                                            I think it all has to do with patents & rights to play blu-ray discs.
                                                                                                                            If a blu-ray drive manufacturer doesn't agree to use the AACS standard &
                                                                                                                            pay for the rights thay can't legally manufacture & sell the drives.

                                                                                                                            In the US such drives would be contraband . Or I think that's how the government would go after them . There would be fines for any wholesaler or retailer that sold them.

                                                                                                                            If I got this wrong then someone please correct me.
                                                                                                                            One can make the same discussion about region coding and restrictions, which is just an earlier form of DRM.

                                                                                                                            The BDA is comprised of members who all have interests in both hardware and content. Not surprisingly, BD players carry restrictions on DVD playback as well, which dedicated DVD players do not carry. Anyone who wants to make and sell BD players must have the BD logo and license. What restrictions the BDA chooses to impose to get that license is not a matter of law, they can dictate anything they like as long as it doesn't violate any law.

                                                                                                                            Examples of these type restrictions include:
                                                                                                                            -No ISO playback
                                                                                                                            -No support for full menu playback of BD rips.
                                                                                                                            -Cinavia detection and compliance.
                                                                                                                            -AACS content encryption

                                                                                                                            The list goes on. Furthermore the BDA can intervene any time they see a decoder or player that's doing something they don't like and force the maker to remove that function under the threat of losing the license. All that is perfectly legal. The term "cartel" comes to mind. Its common and legal in today's corporate world.
                                                                                                                            Hookahice
                                                                                                                            New Member
                                                                                                                            Posted on: 01 Sep 13 21:31
                                                                                                                              Wow... This thread spiraled quick!

                                                                                                                              Anyhow, I have a technical question regarding DVD-Ranger CinEx Module:
                                                                                                                              I have downloaded the Trial Version and have done some experiments with a known Cinavia Title.

                                                                                                                              Question 1: Why is it that the "BD/DVD Player" tab in DVD-Ranger doesn't have the option to checkmark "Use CinEX Module" ? Any other tab (i.e. TV, PS3, Xbox, etc.) has it.
                                                                                                                              I am asking because, if I want to remaster an ISO file to fit onto BD25 (using "BD Movie Only" option), it would be nice to be able to use the "CinEX Module" in the process. I am not interested in converting my movie to an mp4 or other formats... I would like the option to use the CinEX Module during the process of remastering an ISO to BD25.

                                                                                                                              Question 2: Say, I do use the PS3 option to convert my BD movie to an MP4 file and I checkmark BOTH "Use Original Audio" AND "Use CinEX Module". What happens in this case? Does it use the original untouched audio or does it process it using the CinEX Module despite the fact I have "Use Original Audio"?

                                                                                                                              Many thanks for explanations rom anyone in the DVD-Ranger community or anyone who has done some testing with this.

                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                              -HooK
                                                                                                                              Hookahice
                                                                                                                              New Member
                                                                                                                              Posted on: 01 Sep 13 21:41
                                                                                                                                Ok, never mind my 1st question. Found a close enough answer on the DVD-Ranger forum:
                                                                                                                                "...remember this Beta version only backs up in stereo as of now and will not Back up BD to BD at this stage of Beta"

                                                                                                                                But my 2nd question still stand.
                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                -HooK
                                                                                                                                Kerry56
                                                                                                                                Administrator
                                                                                                                                Posted on: 01 Sep 13 21:43
                                                                                                                                  Hookahice
                                                                                                                                  I've removed the link in your signature. We don't allow those types of links in signatures in our forums.

                                                                                                                                  The Cinex module is still very much in beta, so there are some functions that don't work with it. I tried to convert to AC3, for example, and got nothing but high pitched static. I don't believe they have any audio output working except AAC at this point, and AAC is not an accepted audio stream for blu ray or AVCHD.

                                                                                                                                  In case number 2, I suspect that if you enable the Cinex module it will be applied to any audio you get on output. But this is just a guess. I don't have a PS3 and didn't test that setting.
                                                                                                                                  Hookahice
                                                                                                                                  New Member
                                                                                                                                  Posted on: 01 Sep 13 22:02
                                                                                                                                    Thanks Kerry. I am doing more testing.
                                                                                                                                    Can't one technically convert the Cinavia free AAC output file to a compatible audio format and later remux with the BD video?

                                                                                                                                    P.S
                                                                                                                                    What link did I have in my signature? I wasn't aware of any links I had - I was so puzzled when I saw you removed a link from my signature...D:
                                                                                                                                    Kerry56
                                                                                                                                    Administrator
                                                                                                                                    Posted on: 01 Sep 13 22:13
                                                                                                                                      You could certainly convert the AAC to AC3 or PCM for blu ray, but the AAC output quality is so poor at this point, it isn't worth doing.

                                                                                                                                      There was a link in your signature for an external site. Since I don't want to post it in here, I'll send you a pm.
                                                                                                                                      Hookahice
                                                                                                                                      New Member
                                                                                                                                      Posted on: 01 Sep 13 23:15
                                                                                                                                        Ouch!!! I just retrieved the Output file after applying the CinEX Module and it is in horrible quality!

                                                                                                                                        Quality level is totally unacceptable )-:
                                                                                                                                        Ohh well, nice try though. Maybe something more acceptable will come out in the future.

                                                                                                                                        -HooK
                                                                                                                                        Macrovision3500
                                                                                                                                        MyCE Resident
                                                                                                                                        Posted on: 02 Sep 13 14:20
                                                                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                                                                          Originally Posted by Hookahice
                                                                                                                                          Ouch!!! I just retrieved the Output file after applying the CinEX Module and it is in horrible quality!

                                                                                                                                          Quality level is totally unacceptable )-:
                                                                                                                                          Ohh well, nice try though. Maybe something more acceptable will come out in the future.

                                                                                                                                          -HooK
                                                                                                                                          Try this one :


                                                                                                                                          http://club.myce.com/f94/how-disable...ml#post2696593

                                                                                                                                          maybe you might like it.
                                                                                                                                          Hookahice
                                                                                                                                          New Member
                                                                                                                                          Posted on: 02 Sep 13 20:09
                                                                                                                                            Thank you for the link Macrovision3500. I tried your method just now and unfortunately, it's still not acceptable (at least for me). The audio quality is way too degraded. Your method produced a tiny bit better quality than DVD-Ranger but it was similar.

                                                                                                                                            As many said so far, the current approach to bypass Cinavia triggers by applying filters to scramble the signals, result in massive degrading of audio quality )-:

                                                                                                                                            Perhaps, we should be looking at this protection from another angel /-:
                                                                                                                                            Kerry56
                                                                                                                                            Administrator
                                                                                                                                            Posted on: 02 Sep 13 22:29
                                                                                                                                              Quote:
                                                                                                                                              Originally Posted by Hookahice
                                                                                                                                              Perhaps, we should be looking at this protection from another angel /-:
                                                                                                                                              We might need Angelic intervention at this rate.
                                                                                                                                              evilronin
                                                                                                                                              New on Forum
                                                                                                                                              Posted on: 14 Oct 13 20:45
                                                                                                                                                Maybe is presumptuous of me, and I'm by no means a tech head. But is it a better and perhaps easier, again, I'm just trying to think it through, and perhaps this is a brick wall as well; but what about building a program that will unlock the firmware on your BDP and allow you to downgrade the firmware to pre 2012 cinavia free version? I think that would be at least a working solution for now until a permanent solution comes along. I have three BDP players, I have long since turned off my updates on two of the players which are pre-2012 cinavia firmware, one is a new one, post 2012 cinavia. I've made backups of my cinavia discs using DVDfab, they play perfect on my two non-updated ones, but I still get the message on my new one. So I would think, this is just an opinion BTW, that finding a way to revert firmware would be "easier" than finding, isolate, removing, and remuxing cinavia. But maybe I'm wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about, and this route is just as complicated as the audio file route.
                                                                                                                                                cholla
                                                                                                                                                MyCE Resident
                                                                                                                                                Posted on: 17 Nov 13 21:07
                                                                                                                                                  I thought I would address this in this thread instead of "Mysterious user claims Cinavia will soon be easily beaten". It seems more on topic here.

                                                                                                                                                  DVDranger makes this claim :
                                                                                                                                                  Quote:
                                                                                                                                                  Originally Posted by DVDranger
                                                                                                                                                  Our solution WORKS! confirmed by myce.com and other boards.
                                                                                                                                                  It may be this news article that is being referenced :
                                                                                                                                                  http://www.myce.com/news/dvd-ranger-...cinavia-68353/

                                                                                                                                                  It does seem to endorse CinEx:
                                                                                                                                                  Quote:
                                                                                                                                                  The CinEx module from DVD-Ranger is in Beta but we have confirmed that it indeed bypasses the Cinavia protection.
                                                                                                                                                  It further explains:
                                                                                                                                                  Quote:
                                                                                                                                                  Unfortunately the audio quality of the copied movie is far from perfect
                                                                                                                                                  Kerry56 posted this link to some of the files he used CinEx on.
                                                                                                                                                  http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...r-Cinex-module

                                                                                                                                                  He wasn't satisfied with the very low quality of the audio then & probably still isn't. He can post if he has tested again & found the audio acceptable.

                                                                                                                                                  Again here :
                                                                                                                                                  http://club.myce.com/f32/examination...-cinex-334043/

                                                                                                                                                  I think it's time that DoMiN8ToR puts a stop to what DVDranger considers an endorsement of CinEx . That just because it was tested & removes CinEx the audio quality means that it doesn't work .
                                                                                                                                                  ChristineBCW
                                                                                                                                                  MyCE Die Hard
                                                                                                                                                  Posted on: 17 Nov 13 21:49
                                                                                                                                                    I'm inclined to argue for a separate sub-forum consolidating the Cinavia threads, so that readers can discover more history, more quickly.

                                                                                                                                                    Then, a pinned topic about "endorsements" might correctly state the evaluation process at any given time.
                                                                                                                                                    Ulenspiegel
                                                                                                                                                    MyCE Junior Member
                                                                                                                                                    Posted on: 17 Nov 13 21:53
                                                                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                                                                      Originally Posted by ChristineBCW
                                                                                                                                                      I'm inclined to argue for a separate sub-forum consolidating the Cinavia threads, so that readers can discover more history, more quickly.

                                                                                                                                                      Then, a pinned topic about "endorsements" might correctly state the evaluation process at any given time.
                                                                                                                                                      olyteddy
                                                                                                                                                      Senior Moderator
                                                                                                                                                      Posted on: 17 Nov 13 22:07
                                                                                                                                                        An easily done thing would be a thread merge, and change the title to something like: Cinavia Master Thread: All Cinavia posts go here!...The merge would also put everything in chronological order.

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