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Web experts: SOPA will not dissuade people who really want to pirate

Posted at 24 December 2011 13:00 CEST by Justin_Massoud

President of the non-profit Internet Systems Consortium Paul Vixie is far from sold on H.R. 3261, the Stop Online Piracy Act. On the contrary, the web guru believes the anti-piracy bill and its Senate-based sibling PROTECT IP will do little to prevent consumers from illegally downloading content. If someone is determined to pirate a new movie or album, said Vixie, they’re going to find a way to do it.

In a blog post for The Hill, Vixie and a few like-minded associates argued that Rep. Lamar Smith’s proposal would “alter fundamentally the way [Internet Service Providers'] connected customers access the Domain Name System.” Doing so, they said, would only lead to American citizens utilizing foreign domain-name servers – even at their own peril.

“The cost of providing such off-shore services is minimal, and for off-shore pirates, the bounty is great,” wrote Vixie and co. “Sadly, many American citizens will trade both their privacy and their safety to retain their online freedoms, and their resulting losses will be felt by the rest of the American economy.”

Even if SOPA and PROTECT IP are passed into law, the group doesn’t believe the U.S. government could counter what would happen next:

“If the DNS provisions of the pending legislation pass unchanged, we can expect the sellers of these fraudulent or stolen goods to respond to the loss of their 100 or so most valuable and recognized web site domain names with a flotilla of tens of thousands of new names,” they said. “There is no way the Justice Department, or the American ISP industry, would be able to keep pace and block every new infringing domain name.”

SOPA and PROTECT IP are both slated for renewed consideration in January. (via TechDirt)

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There are 51 comments

tmc8080
MyCE Resident
Posted on: 24 Dec 11 16:01
    Ah....

    http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/lj77l/understatement_of_the_year_award/
    hogger129
    MyCE Member
    Posted on: 27 Dec 11 15:59
      I don't even understand why people go onto those torrent sites anyway. Just pay for the DVD/Blu-Ray and make a legal backup copy. It costs far less than the cost of litigation if you get sued for copyright infringement.
      coolcolors
      MyCE Resident
      Posted on: 27 Dec 11 16:45
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by hogger129
        I don't even understand why people go onto those torrent sites anyway. Just pay for the DVD/Blu-Ray and make a legal backup copy. It costs far less than the cost of litigation if you get sued for copyright infringement.
        You sound more like a blow horn for the MPIAA/RIAA representative again. Maybe you haven't read Fair Use... most if not most already own those they bought. And also if you want people to not go that route maybe you should tell your friends to stop ripping off customers with outrageous prices and the music authors whom should have full legal and get control of how they sell and price their music they create. Something that the music industry has fail to come to grips with....The Music Authors are the one creating the music not the music lobby industry machine...
        hogger129
        MyCE Member
        Posted on: 27 Dec 11 23:53
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by coolcolors
          You sound more like a blow horn for the MPIAA/RIAA representative again. Maybe you haven't read Fair Use... most if not most already own those they bought. And also if you want people to not go that route maybe you should tell your friends to stop ripping off customers with outrageous prices and the music authors whom should have full legal and get control of how they sell and price their music they create. Something that the music industry has fail to come to grips with....The Music Authors are the one creating the music not the music lobby industry machine...
          I assure you I am not with the MPAA or RIAA or any kind of "studio" that holds copyrights. I'm just saying that downloading copyrighted stuff from torrents is illegal even if you already bought a copy because the only thing you're allowed to make a backup of is the copyrighted material you bought (DVD or Blu Ray disc, CD or whatever).
          coolcolors
          MyCE Resident
          Posted on: 29 Dec 11 01:31
            Quote:
            Originally Posted by hogger129
            I assure you I am not with the MPAA or RIAA or any kind of "studio" that holds copyrights. I'm just saying that downloading copyrighted stuff from torrents is illegal even if you already bought a copy because the only thing you're allowed to make a backup of is the copyrighted material you bought (DVD or Blu Ray disc, CD or whatever).
            That's good to hear but as with anything they the MPAA/RIAA lack any facts to backup all their claims of lost revenues and the still have yet to show how much they really lost but only makes claims they lost alot. That is a bunch of smoke and screen to steer away from their lack of incompetence in watching the markets and being greedy. Like all real facts there is a so called line "Lost in translation" they are out of touch with the public and the artists.
            johnzap
            MyCE Resident
            Posted on: 30 Dec 11 14:10
              What torrents?!

              You guys have not yet grasped the extremely far-reaching consequences of this abomination. We are not talking torrents here. We are talking about potentially -any- site which allows content posting by end-users.

              Example: I upload here a news comment and, within it, I insert a quote from, e.g. an article protected by copyright. If the copyright owner -thinks- that I shouldn't have done that, several things can happen:

              - they contact a non-judiciary entity (so, no judicial supervision) and ask www.myce.com to be stopped. This means that, within the USA, the domain www.myce.com is blacklisted. If you try to access it, you'll be redirected to a placeholder, saying that the site is under review by the authorities.

              - the site owners become liable for the content I posted. Therefore, they can be sued and could face criminal penalties, like jail time and heavy fines.

              This was just an example. All kinds of user upload content, e.g. videos I made but with something, like a copyrighted tune playing in the background, are also liable; pictures, text, etc., etc., etc.

              The worse of it all is that the idea is to block first and review later. And, if possible, even worse of all, is the fact that the site owners become liable. Say goodbye to online posts of any kind. The site owners would have to validate every single post, of any kind, made by their users. Not feasible, I would say. Therefore, unless they want to potentially face criminal charges, they will be wise to restrict posts to their own.

              Inform yourselves, these bills are more about heavy-handed censorship than about protecting IP interests. The potential for abuse is extreme.
              coolcolors
              MyCE Resident
              Posted on: 30 Dec 11 16:51
                Quote:
                Originally Posted by johnzap
                - the site owners become liable for the content I posted. Therefore, they can be sued and could face criminal penalties, like jail time and heavy fines.
                Don't know where you been hiding all this time but the MODs and Webmasters on here already have a policy and user report abuse already and those abusers are banned and materials that violate their agreements are removed as well as links and advertisements that goes against their agreements users that registered on this site use. So how you would qualify this site as a torrent site is beyond mind boggling and any real lack of credibility on your behalf. You should reserve that for those site and report that to those Webmasters instead. Like anything the Internet and piracy is here to stay. What is missing here is the misteps and out of touch reality the Studios and Greedy CEO mindset to miss what was coming and when they were told by their own insiders in the industry of what was coming they just blew them off and now they are facing their own Music *pun* and can't stomach now....
                R_Maynard
                New Member
                Posted on: 02 Jan 12 03:35
                  The pirate nerds are hiding behind DMCA and as a result have created an unfair market for music. Reject the DMCA by passing SOPA, which will hold the server owners responsible for what is being served out to the public from their servers.

                  I don't like the fact that filesonic dot com (resolving to hong kong) is serving up my music catalog for free including the new stuff, with the torrents and full rar files being linked at hotfilesearch dot com (resolving to florida), covered with pay per click ads and easily found on google. They are stealing my livelyhood.

                  STOP THE PIRATES NOW
                  Don't be in league with pirates. Stealing is a BAD business model that history has proven unsustainable.
                  hogger129
                  MyCE Member
                  Posted on: 02 Jan 12 04:20
                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                    The pirate nerds are hiding behind DMCA and as a result have created an unfair market for music. Reject the DMCA by passing SOPA, which will hold the server owners responsible for what is being served out to the public from their servers.

                    I don't like the fact that filesonic dot com (resolving to hong kong) is serving up my music catalog for free including the new stuff, with the torrents and full rar files being linked at hotfilesearch dot com (resolving to florida), covered with pay per click ads and easily found on google. They are stealing my livelyhood.

                    STOP THE PIRATES NOW
                    Don't be in league with pirates. Stealing is a BAD business model that history has proven unsustainable.
                    What ticks me off is that this is not about "copyright" stuff. The MPAA/RIAA are just greedy organizations that want to make more money. Not only can the MPAA/RIAA shut down sites they merely accuse of copyright infringement, but this can also be used for political viewpoints as well. It boils down to censorship and taking a dump on the First Amendment. If someone's infringing copyright laws, call a lawyer, file a suit and PROVE it. That's the problem with this country. People are guilty until proven innocent because people like the MPAA/RIAA and other special interests can buy politicians and own the law.

                    They need to repeal DMCA, stop SOPA, and create a law like this:

                    -Circumventing copyright protections is 100% legal as long as you purchased an authentic copy of the copyrighted material and the original and copies/reproductions/rips remain in your possession so you can prove it

                    -Making backup copies of something is legal as long as you purchased an authentic copy of the copyrighted material as long as you own the original and the copies remain in your possession

                    -Redistributing the the copies/rips should be a felony

                    I would almost go on to say that people who are making the DVD, Blu Ray and CD cannot put these copy protection schemes on them. It violates Fair Use. For example, if you buy a DVD, you should have a right to put it onto your computer for playback on other devices. For some (my experience with Dark Knight) this is impossible because of the copy protection schemes on the DVD. I bought it. Why can't I rip it onto my computer so I can watch it on my PS3 or Apple TV? I'm not redistributing it. Just watching it on my PS3 and Apple TV.

                    The way I see it, if people are paying say $20 for a Blu Ray disc, or like $10 for a DVD, or $12 for a CD, they have a right to rip it into a digital format for playback on other devices, they should have a right to make a backup so that they don't damage/destroy the original.

                    It's the people who copy the movies and then sell them or hand them out to their friends or upload them to torrent sites like PirateBay who should be punished. Not people like me who just want to watch my movies that I bought on my PS3 through an external hard drive.

                    That is why I've turned to the iTunes Store. They give you the movies in a digital format. They are DRM protected, but I own the Apple devices to play them back on. Some movies I've bought offer a Digital Copy that I can redeem in iTunes. IMO this is a great business model for customers with my needs. Plus I can back them up onto external hard drives or DVDs. It's great. If the people who made the DVD, BR and CDs did this, they'd get a lot more business.

                    I just get sick of where I go buy a DVD like The Dark Knight and it's impossible and probably illegal to put it into a digital format so that I can watch it on other devices I own. I do not intend to share it or redistribute it in any way, but apparently I cannot be trusted. So rather than going after the pirates, all these film studios has done is angered me, and haven't done really anything to stop the pirates.


                    -----------

                    What these organizations want is to stop the redistribution of copyrighted material they own the copyrights to. They don't own the movies, just the rights to redistribute and/or sell them. I don't think any honest person can disagree there. Most people aren't looking to break the law. Most people - like me - just want to watch the movies we buy - in the formats we want - without the headaches.

                    All these copy protection schemes do is get in the way of people who buy authentic copies of the film. When they want to rip it into a digital format to watch on other devices in their home - they can't - because it's illegal. If it weren't for Fair Use, we wouldn't even be allowed to make backup copies of what we bought.

                    If they want to stop the pirates, they need to get some lawyers, file lawsuits, and start prosecuting the people who host the sites with the torrents, and prosecute the people who share the content in those torrents.

                    All the copy protection schemes in the world haven't stopped pirates - going back to Betamax tapes. So all it turns into is a giant cat and mouse game, and honest people who buy the movies get the shaft because of piracy and the companies that go over the top to attempt to stop it.
                    UTR
                    MyCE Resident
                    Posted on: 02 Jan 12 04:48
                      I find it humorous that the MPAA, RIAA and their bought and paid for politicians think they can change the behavior of the masses. The more they try to stop piracy the more people will pirate content. They need to figure out a way to profit from downloading music, movies etc. instead of trying to scare people into adhering to their ancient business model.

                      The only way I see them getting in front of the issue is to offer access to all music, movies, TV shows etc. from a central source and for a low monthly/annual based fee. Then as content is downloaded, and tallied, the fees are distributed according to the percentage their content was downloaded compared to the total downloads. They need to make getting content easier than pirating it and charging a fee so low that nearly everyone will pay it gladly. Instead they try to hold on to their past business models and make the Internet and end users kowtow to their will. They haven't figured out yet that it is the masses that determine what is fair and feasible and not a handful of media moguls and their pet politicians.
                      StormJumper
                      Retired Moderator
                      Posted on: 02 Jan 12 10:28
                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by UTR
                        The only way I see them getting in front of the issue is to offer access to all music, movies, TV shows etc. from a central source and for a low monthly/annual based fee. Then as content is downloaded, and tallied, the fees are distributed according to the percentage their content was downloaded compared to the total downloads. They need to make getting content easier than pirating it and charging a fee so low that nearly everyone will pay it gladly. Instead they try to hold on to their past business models and make the Internet and end users kowtow to their will. They haven't figured out yet that it is the masses that determine what is fair and feasible and not a handful of media moguls and their pet politicians.
                        That will not stop the problem of piracy because with the worlds economy the way it is due to corporate management and government greed, whether it’s through the Internet or on the streets people will always look for a better price and with pirated content one can always find what their looking for at a cheaper price and sometimes even at no cost.
                        jbkingjr
                        MyCE Junior Member
                        Posted on: 02 Jan 12 17:28
                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by StormJumper
                          That will not stop the problem of piracy because with the worlds economy the way it is due to corporate management and government greed, whether it’s through the Internet or on the streets people will always look for a better price and with pirated content one can always find what their looking for at a cheaper price and sometimes even at no cost.
                          That may be true, but there are plenty of us who would support the industry with lower prices - I myself have been known in the past to copy of new rented movie and then purchase it later once the price has come down to a more realistic price that I'm willing to pay. Life is a little more complicated and busy now, so I don't get to watch too many movies these days, but that was my way of doing things in the past.
                          R_Maynard
                          New Member
                          Posted on: 02 Jan 12 17:52
                            Do you actually think the RIAA is following people home with their store bought CD, watching them and busting them for backing it up if they do it?

                            And what computer won't play store bought CDs or DVDs forcing you to rip it into a different format?

                            And doesn't iTunes conveniently import your CDs and DVDs for your watching and listening on those apple devices?

                            The problem is that the DMCA says that server owners are NOT responsible for something users put on their server, where as SOPA says that the server owners ARE responsible for what users put on their servers.

                            I notice that youTube has not chimed in on this matter. But they did introduce a beta program called contentID.
                            http://www.youtube.com/t/contentid
                            They did this and made contentID catch legal content like 30 second snippets. This caused an uprising of complaints. But that appears to be a defect by design and easily fixed to leave the legal content alone.

                            HOLD THE SERVER OWNERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT ON THEIR SERVER.
                            Don’t be in league with pirates.

                            HELP FIGHT THE PIRATE NERDS BY SUPPORTING SOPA
                            I'm a voter and I am only voting for those who support SOPA.
                            R_Maynard
                            New Member
                            Posted on: 02 Jan 12 18:11
                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by StormJumper
                              sometimes even at no cost.
                              somtimes?

                              that's a laugh. 95% of all music downloads are free illegal from pirates.

                              If you are not convinced, then why not take a trip to your local music store? Not Walmart, but the local CD store. The one that sells only music and not groceries and a ton of other unrelated stuff. You will see the carcus of the music industry if your local store is even still there. They will be selling 98% used stuff. Next time you go to a new car dealership, think what it would mean if they only had used cars.
                              R_Maynard
                              New Member
                              Posted on: 02 Jan 12 18:20
                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by hogger129
                                Do you actually think the RIAA is following people home with their store bought CD, watching them and busting them for backing it up if they do it?

                                And what computer won't play store bought CDs or DVDs forcing you to rip it into a different format?

                                And doesn't iTunes conveniently import your CDs and DVDs for your watching and listening on those apple devices?

                                The problem is that the DMCA says that server owners are NOT responsible for something users put on their server, where as SOPA says that the server owners ARE responsible for what users put on their servers.

                                I notice that youTube has not chimed in on this matter. But they did introduce a beta program called contentID.
                                http://www.youtube.com/t/contentid
                                They did this and made contentID catch legal content like 30 second snippets. This caused an uprising of complaints. But that appears to be a defect by design and easily fixed to leave the legal content alone.

                                HOLD THE SERVER OWNERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT ON THEIR SERVER.
                                Don’t be in league with pirates.

                                HELP FIGHT THE PIRATE NERDS BY SUPPORTING SOPA
                                I'm a voter and I am only voting for those who support SOPA.
                                jbkingjr
                                MyCE Junior Member
                                Posted on: 02 Jan 12 18:32
                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                  Do you actually think the RIAA is following people home with their store bought CD, watching them and busting them for backing it up if they do it?

                                  And what computer won't play store bought CDs or DVDs forcing you to rip it into a different format?

                                  And doesn't iTunes conveniently import your CDs and DVDs for your watching and listening on those apple devices?

                                  The problem is that the DMCA says that server owners are NOT responsible for something users put on their server, where as SOPA says that the server owners ARE responsible for what users put on their servers.

                                  I notice that youTube has not chimed in on this matter. But they did introduce a beta program called contentID.
                                  http://www.youtube.com/t/contentid
                                  They did this and made contentID catch legal content like 30 second snippets. This caused an uprising of complaints. But that appears to be a defect by design and easily fixed to leave the legal content alone.

                                  HOLD THE SERVER OWNERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT ON THEIR SERVER.
                                  Don’t be in league with pirates.

                                  HELP FIGHT THE PIRATE NERDS BY SUPPORTING SOPA
                                  I'm a voter and I am only voting for those who support SOPA.
                                  Please... lol Why should the server owners be responsible for the stuff that other people put up on the Internet? Should MyCE be responsible for my posts? No! Should they comply with requests to remove material that is found that should not be posted? I can agree to that. SOPA and any potential law like it are a mistake and anyone supporting them is a fool, to be honest - the people supporting them are usually the corporations and money makers who their main concern is their wallets, while the rest of us would like to keep as many of our rights as possible before people like you have us begging for scraps at your feet. So... Relax, dude.
                                  Jeffrey_P
                                  MyCE Member
                                  Posted on: 02 Jan 12 22:18
                                    Quote:
                                    Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                    Do you actually think the RIAA is following people home with their store bought CD, watching them and busting them for backing it up if they do it?

                                    And what computer won't play store bought CDs or DVDs forcing you to rip it into a different format?

                                    And doesn't iTunes conveniently import your CDs and DVDs for your watching and listening on those apple devices?

                                    The problem is that the DMCA says that server owners are NOT responsible for something users put on their server, where as SOPA says that the server owners ARE responsible for what users put on their servers.

                                    I notice that youTube has not chimed in on this matter. But they did introduce a beta program called contentID.
                                    http://www.youtube.com/t/contentid
                                    They did this and made contentID catch legal content like 30 second snippets. This caused an uprising of complaints. But that appears to be a defect by design and easily fixed to leave the legal content alone.

                                    HOLD THE SERVER OWNERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT ON THEIR SERVER.
                                    Don’t be in league with pirates.

                                    HELP FIGHT THE PIRATE NERDS BY SUPPORTING SOPA
                                    I'm a voter and I am only voting for those who support SOPA.
                                    People like you should be part of the powers at be living in mainland China. Ignorance is bliss. Jeff
                                    Jeffrey_P
                                    MyCE Member
                                    Posted on: 02 Jan 12 22:19
                                      Quote:
                                      Originally Posted by jbkingjr
                                      Please... lol Why should the server owners be responsible for the stuff that other people put up on the Internet? Should MyCE be responsible for my posts? No! Should they comply with requests to remove material that is found that should not be posted? I can agree to that. SOPA and any potential law like it are a mistake and anyone supporting them is a fool, to be honest - the people supporting them are usually the corporations and money makers who their main concern is their wallets, while the rest of us would like to keep as many of our rights as possible before people like you have us begging for scraps at your feet. So... Relax, dude.
                                      That guy gives me the creeps...
                                      hogger129
                                      MyCE Member
                                      Posted on: 02 Jan 12 22:38
                                        Quote:
                                        Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                        Do you actually think the RIAA is following people home with their store bought CD, watching them and busting them for backing it up if they do it? 
                                        No, I do not think the RIAA is following people home and ensuring that they are not breaking copyright laws. That doesn't mean people should do it though.
                                        --------------------------

                                        Quote:
                                        And what computer won't play store bought CDs or DVDs forcing you to rip it into a different format?
                                        There aren't very many computers that won't play back CDs, DVDs or Blu Ray discs. The reason, however, that I want to rip it into a different format is so that I can save the inconvenience of having to flip through my DVD cases. I should be able to rip my movies into a digital format, put them on my external hard drive, and then either stream them to my devices like my PS3 or my Apple TV, or plug in directly to watch movies that I paid hard-earned money for.

                                        --------------------------

                                        Quote:
                                        And doesn't iTunes conveniently import your CDs and DVDs for your watching and listening on those apple devices?
                                        iTunes lets you import CDs. It does not let you import DVDs or Blu Ray discs.

                                        ------------------------------

                                        Quote:
                                        The problem is that the DMCA says that server owners are NOT responsible for something users put on their server, where as SOPA says that the server owners ARE responsible for what users put on their servers.
                                        If server owners are not responsible for something users put on their server, then how come things like Pirate Bay get sued for users who host torrents on their site? I believe the people who own Pirate Bay had all their equipment raided a few years ago in an effort to shut them down.

                                        --------------------------------

                                        Quote:
                                        I notice that youTube has not chimed in on this matter. But they did introduce a beta program called contentID. http://www.youtube.com/t/contentidThey did this and made contentID catch legal content like 30 second snippets. This caused an uprising of complaints. But that appears to be a defect by design and easily fixed to leave the legal content alone.
                                        YouTube should do absolutely nothing. Why? Because this SOPA law can come back on them too. If people who put videos up on their site are infringing copyright law, the authorities will shut down YouTube if they can't get all the people who are uploading copyrighted material to their site. Sooner or later it will happen if SOPA becomes law. I thought the internet was supposed to be a free exchange of ideas. That doesn't mean I support piracy, but why is it fair to run over people who aren't even breaking the law? It obviously hasn't worked with CDs, DVDs and Blu Rays. All these copy protections don't stop the pirates - just legitimate owners like me. If these copy protection schemes did work, you wouldn't see the amount of movie torrents on places like the Pirate Bay.

                                        ------------------------------

                                        Quote:
                                        HOLD THE SERVER OWNERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT ON THEIR SERVER.Don’t be in league with pirates.
                                        HELP FIGHT THE PIRATE NERDS BY SUPPORTING SOPAI'm a voter and I am only voting for those who support SOPA.
                                        Would you mind explaining to me why server owners should be held responsible for the actions of other people?

                                        If the owners of the copyrighted material don't like it, they should call their legal team, collect evidence, and then take people to court who are breaking copyright laws, and then prove it.

                                        This country has turned into a haven for the lawyers because of people like you who elect politicians that let them get away with it.

                                        ----------------------

                                        I'm not endorsing piracy, but sitting here and saying that opposing SOPA = supporting piracy is another scare tactic to get you to give up more of your freedoms and rights.
                                        R_Maynard
                                        New Member
                                        Posted on: 03 Jan 12 05:14
                                          Quote:
                                          Originally Posted by jbkingjr
                                          Why should the server owners be responsible for the stuff that other people put up on the Internet?
                                          Because they are the only ones with the keys to the chevy, pardon the metaphore, who else can search the server and delete? Will they give me access to their server so I can search for my music and delete it? I don't think so.
                                          R_Maynard
                                          New Member
                                          Posted on: 03 Jan 12 05:25
                                            Quote:
                                            Originally Posted by hogger129
                                            This country has turned into a haven for the lawyers because of people like you who elect politicians that let them get away with it.
                                            Acutally I'm a starving musician because my music has been stolen and given away free to people for the price of a pay per click ad. In ten years time, my ounce booming business has been reduced to $400 a month with no savings. You try and live on that sometime. And to rub salt in the wound, the torrents uploaders claim my music to be their more popular torrents.
                                            hogger129
                                            MyCE Member
                                            Posted on: 03 Jan 12 06:04
                                              Quote:
                                              Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                              Because they are the only ones with the keys to the chevy, pardon the metaphore, who else can search the server and delete? Will they give me access to their server so I can search for my music and delete it? I don't think so.
                                              So it's fair to prosecute somebody for something they didn't do?

                                              That would be like prosecuting me because a family member of mine did something that was against the law. Good luck trying to win in court.
                                              hogger129
                                              MyCE Member
                                              Posted on: 03 Jan 12 06:06
                                                Quote:
                                                Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                Acutally I'm a starving musician because my music has been stolen and given away free to people for the price of a pay per click ad. In ten years time, my ounce booming business has been reduced to $400 a month with no savings. You try and live on that sometime. And to rub salt in the wound, the torrents uploaders claim my music to be their more popular torrents.
                                                I think you're full of it because obviously you have enough money to be able to afford internet service and a computer to go on.

                                                If you are who you say you are, try another career if you can't make money doing what you do now. Saying your situation is because of pirates is silly.

                                                Other musicians' music is pirated every day, but they still make thousands of dollars.

                                                I make about $1000 a week doing what I do now, and I save about $200 out of every paycheck into my savings account.

                                                I can't afford to go out all the time and blow a bunch of money with my friends because I'm responsible and have bills to pay.

                                                I'm also in school right now to find a better career where I can make more money and buy a home, rather than sitting complaining about how unfair my life is.
                                                olyteddy
                                                Senior Moderator
                                                Posted on: 03 Jan 12 06:42
                                                  Quote:
                                                  Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                  Acutally I'm a starving musician because my music has been stolen and given away free to people for the price of a pay per click ad. In ten years time, my ounce booming business has been reduced to $400 a month with no savings. You try and live on that sometime. And to rub salt in the wound, the torrents uploaders claim my music to be their more popular torrents.
                                                  You got my interest. Got a YouTube link? I'd love to hear a 'Starving Musician'.
                                                  Mr. Belvedere
                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                  Posted on: 03 Jan 12 10:34
                                                    Quote:
                                                    Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                    Acutally I'm a starving musician because my music has been stolen and given away free to people for the price of a pay per click ad. In ten years time, my ounce booming business has been reduced to $400 a month with no savings. You try and live on that sometime. And to rub salt in the wound, the torrents uploaders claim my music to be their more popular torrents.
                                                    Not to rub salt in your wounds, but wouldn't you agree that the business model(s) you are using are a bit outdated? There are several entrepeneurs who have changed their business model and way of acting and handling their content as an artist. Louis CK, Jonathan Coulton to name a few.

                                                    Here's an example of Louis CK's latest remark on torrenting his work:

                                                    Quote:
                                                    To those who might wish to "torrent" this video:

                                                    Look, I don't really get the whole "torrent" thing. I don't know enough about it to judge either way. But I'd just like you to consider this: I made this video extremely easy to use against well-informed advice. I was told that it would be easier to torrent the way I made it, but I chose to do it this way anyway, because I want it to be easy for people to watch and enjoy this video in any way they want without "corporate" restrictions.

                                                    Please bear in mind that I am not a company or a corporation. I'm just some guy. I paid for the production and posting of this video with my own money. I would like to be able to post more material to the fans in this way, which makes it cheaper for the buyer and more pleasant for me. So, please help me keep this being a good idea. I can't stop you from torrenting; all I can do is politely ask you to pay your five little dollars, enjoy the video, and let other people find it in the same way.

                                                    Sincerely,
                                                    Louis C.K.
                                                    The internet community could decide to rip off Louis CK totally and torrent all the way (some actually are doing that on the famous torrent servers, just because they can), but more than 200,000 people decided to purchase the license of his show for $5 and Louis CK made a million dollars in just two weeks! The people who are sharing this $5 work for free torrenting are completely bashed by his loyal fans at the same time! How cool is that?

                                                    I also think the artist is not only his music (bunch of mp3 files and/or pressed discs), but should be much more. An icon. A theme. An experience. What do you offer your fans and how do you honor your fans? Yes, i think fans should be honored, for they are willing to pay for content or material and invest valuable time.

                                                    Reap the rewards of the fans that honor you and honor them back. Do not anger those that are not. They are not worth a second of your time and you will never be able to stop them from illegally sharing your stuff. They didn't care in the first place and will care even less or convice your fans not to care if you decide not to honor them as your fans, but see them as "customers that should only pay up and shut up".

                                                    So, where can i try and listen to you music and then maybe decide if i want to become a fan and buy a shirt or purchase/download a licensed mp4 live concert file or something?

                                                    Remember: The internet gives you unlimited and almost free resources to reach out to your fans. You don't have to sign or join a media business enterprise to do that.
                                                    R_Maynard
                                                    New Member
                                                    Posted on: 03 Jan 12 17:57
                                                      Quote:
                                                      Originally Posted by Mr. Belvedere
                                                      Not to rub salt in your wounds, but wouldn't you agree that the business model(s) you are using are a bit outdated?
                                                      I always use the latest and greatest business model and have for 30 years. 2001 - now were the worst years in my lifetime. In the last ten years the pirates have stolen the music to promote their pay per click ads and rapidshare sites.


                                                      The point being the pirates are giving my music away for the money their pay per click ads bring in. The last time I checked I am getting 9 cents for every 60 plays on Mog (the newest business model), whereas the pirates get 10 cents per click on an ad dispayed on a page linking to my music in the form of torrents and rar files downloadable free. And that doesn't even consider the per month fee charged by rapidshare and others to give my music away faster.

                                                      And again, my point... This is all easily found on google. go away google. This has wiped out the market for music. And don't tell me music isn't worth anything, because pirates don't steal worthless stuff and never have. That's why they have burried treasures. Pirating is the business model that needs to be updated. History has proven pirating to be an unsustainable business model (they usually get killed).

                                                      STOP THE PIRATE NERDS NOW
                                                      TAKE BACK OUR FREEDOM TO CREATE

                                                      Don't be in league with pirate theives
                                                      I vote for only supporters of STOP ONLINE PIRACY
                                                      We need a new internet, one that protects it's citizens from theft.
                                                      AllanDeGroot
                                                      MyCE Resident
                                                      Posted on: 03 Jan 12 18:32
                                                        Quote:
                                                        Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                        Because they are the only ones with the keys to the chevy, pardon the metaphore, who else can search the server and delete? Will they give me access to their server so I can search for my music and delete it? I don't think so.
                                                        Not at all correct.

                                                        Making server/site owners responsible is like holding the owners of a building legally responsible for any graffitti that might be painted on
                                                        the wall.

                                                        Legally it is the equivelent of the government (and your accusers) WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW to bulldoze your building because someone painted something on the wall.

                                                        Look at those sites that were unlawfully shut down last year because of the ACCUSATION of piracy.


                                                        Record companies are the real "thieves" in stealing from artists and they are trying to stifle
                                                        any compatetion to their theft.

                                                        And THE problem with this new "piracy law" is that it is written so broadly that it can (and assuredly WILL) be used far beyond it's stated intent.

                                                        It IS a "Censorship" law.

                                                        It for certain violates both the 1st and 5th ammendments of the constitution.
                                                        And through careful scrutiny you'll find other rights violated as well.

                                                        Piracy may well be a problem, but this law is the legal equivelent of burning down your house
                                                        to get rid of a single mouse.

                                                        it's a grotesquely "over the top" solution to a rediculously exaggerated problem


                                                        AD
                                                        R_Maynard
                                                        New Member
                                                        Posted on: 03 Jan 12 19:18
                                                          Quote:
                                                          Originally Posted by AllanDeGroot
                                                          Not at all correct.
                                                          Making server/site owners responsible is like holding the owners of a building legally responsible for any graffitti that might be painted on the wall.
                                                          We're not talking about graffiti here. The pirate nerds have messed with the wrong group of people. We musicians are a mean bunch and we don't like getting ripped off. We're gonna fight back.

                                                          In the last ten years the pirates have stolen the music to promote their pay per click ads and rapidshare sites.

                                                          Don't tell me music isn't worth anything, because pirates don't steal worthless stuff and never have. That's why they have burried treasures. Pirating is the business model that needs to be updated. History has proven pirating to be an unsustainable business model (they usually get killed).

                                                          STOP THE PIRATE NERDS NOW
                                                          TAKE BACK OUR FREEDOM TO CREATE

                                                          Don't be in league with pirate thieves
                                                          I vote for only supporters of STOP ONLINE PIRACY
                                                          We need a new internet, one that protects it's citizens from theft.
                                                          Mr. Belvedere
                                                          MyCE Resident
                                                          Posted on: 03 Jan 12 19:31
                                                            Quote:
                                                            Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                            I always use the latest and greatest business model and have for 30 years.
                                                            Advertising is not a business model. Advertising is a system that might give some revenue, but it's not a guarantueed system for a modest steady income.

                                                            Quote:
                                                            History has proven pirating to be an unsustainable business model (they usually get killed).
                                                            History has also proven, countless times, that consumers do not care about shady business models and rather support the creator directly. If not possible, they will use other methods to get their fix.

                                                            Quote:
                                                            STOP THE PIRATE NERDS NOW
                                                            TAKE BACK OUR FREEDOM TO CREATE

                                                            Don't be in league with pirate theives
                                                            I vote for only supporters of STOP ONLINE PIRACY
                                                            We need a new internet, one that protects it's citizens from theft.
                                                            Seriously, denying access will not stop piracy. Consumers don't care. Putting limitations on things will only rise up demand for other methods. And trust me, there are over 20 other different piracy methods anxiously waiting for the current ones to fail to get their turn.

                                                            But be a drone for the current corporation schematics all you want. I'm sure they will reward you for it.
                                                            R_Maynard
                                                            New Member
                                                            Posted on: 03 Jan 12 19:43
                                                              Quote:
                                                              Originally Posted by Mr. Belvedere
                                                              And trust me, there are over 20 other different piracy methods anxiously waiting for the current ones to fail to get their turn.
                                                              Well they won't have long to wait. And next time we're fighting back right away.
                                                              R_Maynard
                                                              New Member
                                                              Posted on: 03 Jan 12 19:59
                                                                Quote:
                                                                Originally Posted by olyteddy
                                                                You got my interest. Got a YouTube link? I'd love to hear a 'Starving Musician'.
                                                                I'm not here to advertise. I'm here to fight for my freedom to create music in a fair market.
                                                                Mr. Belvedere
                                                                MyCE Resident
                                                                Posted on: 03 Jan 12 21:32
                                                                  Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                  Well they won't have long to wait. And next time we're fighting back right away.
                                                                  Who is "we"? I'm sensing something weird going on here. You might not be an artist but a peon for somebody.
                                                                  Can you convince me otherwise?

                                                                  There is no such thing as a fair market.
                                                                  UTR
                                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                                  Posted on: 03 Jan 12 23:43
                                                                    Quote:
                                                                    Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                    Acutally I'm a starving musician because my music has been stolen and given away free to people for the price of a pay per click ad. In ten years time, my ounce booming business has been reduced to $400 a month with no savings. You try and live on that sometime. And to rub salt in the wound, the torrents uploaders claim my music to be their more popular torrents.
                                                                    I am finding your credibility suspect. You start an account here and then have all your posts in this one thread. Of all the places on the Internet you could perch you pick this site and this thread at this moment? If you are starving then it might be because you are wasting your time trolling forums looking to pick a fight. It sure isn't because your "music" is being pirated. If you had a booming business then give us a few songs that we could recognize that you produced, promoted, wrote, recorded etc. Otherwise, I will just assume you are a troll and ignore you.
                                                                    UTR
                                                                    MyCE Resident
                                                                    Posted on: 03 Jan 12 23:55
                                                                      Quote:
                                                                      Originally Posted by StormJumper
                                                                      That will not stop the problem of piracy because with the worlds economy the way it is due to corporate management and government greed, whether it’s through the Internet or on the streets people will always look for a better price and with pirated content one can always find what their looking for at a cheaper price and sometimes even at no cost.
                                                                      I agree as long as they keep promoting the same ancient, tired business model. The music industry is seeing a reduction in their revenue every year. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the future holds for them if they don't change their business model. The same is happening to the movie industry except they are not as far along as the music industry. The only way they can compete against piracy is through ease of access to content and a pricing structure that optimizes revenue.

                                                                      I see no way they can stop piracy without causing a massive backlash from the general population. If they think business is bad now then it can get a lot worse if the public sees them as infringing on their Constitutional rights such as free speech and the right to be assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law based on evidence and by a jury of your peers. They could make the movie theaters very empty if public opinion turns on them with a vengeance.
                                                                      olyteddy
                                                                      Senior Moderator
                                                                      Posted on: 04 Jan 12 03:36
                                                                        Quote:
                                                                        Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                        I'm not here to advertise. I'm here to fight for my freedom to create music in a fair market.
                                                                        I'm not asking you to advertise. I just wanted to judge for myself whether or not piracy actually impacts your income from music. In other words, does anyone but you think your stuff is worth 'stealing', or are they just not buying it because it isn't real good. I mean you say they're stealing you blind, I say you have to be a good musician to be worth stealing...
                                                                        UTR
                                                                        MyCE Resident
                                                                        Posted on: 04 Jan 12 04:20
                                                                          Quote:
                                                                          Originally Posted by olyteddy
                                                                          I'm not asking you to advertise. I just wanted to judge for myself whether or not piracy actually impacts your income from music. In other words, does anyone but you think your stuff is worth 'stealing', or are they just not buying it because it isn't real good. I mean you say they're stealing you blind, I say you have to be a good musician to be worth stealing...
                                                                          .... and if you are a good musician then there is more than one way to earn income. Some musicians are better off having their music pirated because it brings more people to their concerts, the added popularity pirating can bring can generate substantial endorsement deals and promote other product lines (perfume, clothing etc.). I wouldn't be surprised if many artists make more from non-record sale sources than actual record sales.
                                                                          R_Maynard
                                                                          New Member
                                                                          Posted on: 04 Jan 12 04:41
                                                                            Quote:
                                                                            Originally Posted by olyteddy
                                                                            I'm not asking you to advertise. I just wanted to judge for myself whether or not piracy actually impacts your income from music. In other words, does anyone but you think your stuff is worth 'stealing', or are they just not buying it because it isn't real good. I mean you say they're stealing you blind, I say you have to be a good musician to be worth stealing...
                                                                            Oh I see thru your mind
                                                                            You want to treat me unkind
                                                                            You want to stifle and gag me
                                                                            if my name you can find

                                                                            yeah I know who you are
                                                                            you want daggers in my heart
                                                                            You want to find me and slay me
                                                                            all over in your trees

                                                                            I've been told I was crazy
                                                                            And at times I've been lazy
                                                                            But I would have to be insane
                                                                            to give you my name.
                                                                            R_Maynard
                                                                            New Member
                                                                            Posted on: 04 Jan 12 05:01
                                                                              Quote:
                                                                              Originally Posted by UTR
                                                                              .... and if you are a good musician then there is more than one way to earn income. Some musicians are better off having their music pirated because it brings more people to their concerts, the added popularity pirating can bring can generate substantial endorsement deals and promote other product lines (perfume, clothing etc.). I wouldn't be surprised if many artists make more from non-record sale sources than actual record sales.
                                                                              It's a shame that you think a good musician should have to find other ways to make money. I would like to see the proof in the numbers that any musician or band has benefited from piracy. Although that is a common justification in this issue.
                                                                              R_Maynard
                                                                              New Member
                                                                              Posted on: 04 Jan 12 05:14
                                                                                Quote:
                                                                                Originally Posted by Mr. Belvedere
                                                                                Who is "we"? I'm sensing something weird going on here. You might not be an artist but a peon for somebody. Can you convince me otherwise?
                                                                                There is no such thing as a fair market.
                                                                                We musicians dude. We are tired of being ripped and we are going to fight for our freedom to create music in a fair market.
                                                                                olyteddy
                                                                                Senior Moderator
                                                                                Posted on: 04 Jan 12 05:47
                                                                                  Quote:
                                                                                  Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                  It's a shame that you think a good musician should have to find other ways to make money. I would like to see the proof in the numbers that any musician or band has benefited from piracy. Although that is a common justification in this issue.
                                                                                  It's still up in the air whether or not you're a good musician...

                                                                                  Frankly you look like a troll to me. Just posting to incite.
                                                                                  UTR
                                                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                                                  Posted on: 04 Jan 12 08:21
                                                                                    Quote:
                                                                                    Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                    It's a shame that you think a good musician should have to find other ways to make money. I would like to see the proof in the numbers that any musician or band has benefited from piracy. Although that is a common justification in this issue.
                                                                                    You are just a garden variety troll. Put up or shut up.
                                                                                    Mr. Belvedere
                                                                                    MyCE Resident
                                                                                    Posted on: 04 Jan 12 09:37
                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                      Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                      We musicians dude. We are tired of being ripped and we are going to fight for our freedom to create music in a fair market.
                                                                                      Some things are not right here. For a music artist you make little effort to let people know how to reach out to you.

                                                                                      What is your artist name? Where is your music? Where can i buy licenses of your work? Where can i watch, listen or otherwise enjoy your creative outbursts? Got a website? Facebook? LinkedIn? iTunes?

                                                                                      I don't care about bashing you. I don't have the time nor the interest in that. I just want to know what i'm dealing with here.
                                                                                      R_Maynard
                                                                                      New Member
                                                                                      Posted on: 04 Jan 12 21:22
                                                                                        Quote:
                                                                                        Originally Posted by Mr. Belvedere
                                                                                        Some things are not right here. For a music artist you make little effort to let people know how to reach out to you.

                                                                                        What is your artist name? Where is your music? Where can i buy licenses of your work? Where can i watch, listen or otherwise enjoy your creative outbursts? Got a website? Facebook? LinkedIn? iTunes?

                                                                                        I don't care about bashing you. I don't have the time nor the interest in that. I just want to know what i'm dealing with here.
                                                                                        I don't need to prove anything to you. The issue is the pirates, not me.

                                                                                        CALLING ALL MUSICIANS - Stop being ripped off...

                                                                                        JOIN ME IN THE FIGHT AGAINST THE PIRATES

                                                                                        STOP THE PIRATE NERDS NOW
                                                                                        TAKE BACK OUR FREEDOM TO CREATE

                                                                                        Don't be in league with pirate thieves
                                                                                        I only vote for supporters of STOP ONLINE PIRACY
                                                                                        We need a new internet, one that protects it's citizens from theft.

                                                                                        http://www.zdnet.com/blog/seo/make-m...t+All+Blogs%29
                                                                                        UTR
                                                                                        MyCE Resident
                                                                                        Posted on: 04 Jan 12 21:48
                                                                                          Quote:
                                                                                          Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                          I don't need to prove anything to you. The issue is the pirates, not me.
                                                                                          Actually you do. The issue is the RIAA, MPAA etc. using Gestapo tactics and crapping on the Constitutional rights of citizens in the name of perpetuating an outdated business model that rips off musicians and the end users.
                                                                                          jbkingjr
                                                                                          MyCE Junior Member
                                                                                          Posted on: 04 Jan 12 21:49
                                                                                            Quote:
                                                                                            Originally Posted by Jeffrey_P
                                                                                            That guy gives me the creeps...
                                                                                            What about what I said gives you the creeps? You disagree, I take it? lol
                                                                                            R_Maynard
                                                                                            New Member
                                                                                            Posted on: 05 Jan 12 00:51
                                                                                              Quote:
                                                                                              Originally Posted by UTR
                                                                                              Actually you do. The issue is the RIAA, MPAA etc. using Gestapo tactics and crapping on the Constitutional rights of citizens in the name of perpetuating an outdated business model that rips off musicians and the end users.
                                                                                              You guys are full of it. Exagerations in an atempt to justify pirating. Gestapo, heh, have you heard of anyone getting shot to death by the RIAA? All we (musicians) want is a fair market. (we would even settle for a market at this point)

                                                                                              But hey, I will listen. How should I change my business model? I'm all ears.
                                                                                              UTR
                                                                                              MyCE Resident
                                                                                              Posted on: 05 Jan 12 02:38
                                                                                                Quote:
                                                                                                Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                                You guys are full of it. Exagerations in an atempt to justify pirating. Gestapo, heh, have you heard of anyone getting shot to death by the RIAA? All we (musicians) want is a fair market. (we would even settle for a market at this point)
                                                                                                I have heard of the shotgun lawsuits the RIAA has been perpetrating for years. They don't care who they sue as long as they can extort money from people without them being convicted in a court of law with irrefutable evidence that they committed a crime. It isn't beyond the RIAA to sue grandmothers, single mothers, deaf people etc. without just cause. This is closer to Gestapo tactics than you realize.

                                                                                                If you want to be treated fair then you, and your downtrodden musician army, should be storming the gates of the record industry tycoons. Giving them a pass for their behavior the past several years isn't doing you any good and is actually speeding the demise of the record industry and you by association.

                                                                                                Quote:
                                                                                                Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                                But hey, I will listen. How should I change my business model? I'm all ears.
                                                                                                Well, that is for YOU to figure out. I gave my thoughts on the matter in an earlier response. If you are as talented, and popular, as you claim then why aren't you selling out bars or stadiums? If you are being pirated as much as you claim then you should be touring and making a fortune off of this alone.

                                                                                                Why aren't you giving out links to where we can find your music? If your idea of self promotion is to keep your work a secret, then maybe you need to take a few marketing courses. I guess you might think it is a good way to prevent your music from being pirated?

                                                                                                Then again, maybe you are just a troll pretending to be something you never could be IRL.
                                                                                                olyteddy
                                                                                                Senior Moderator
                                                                                                Posted on: 05 Jan 12 03:56
                                                                                                  Quote:
                                                                                                  Originally Posted by jbkingjr
                                                                                                  What about what I said gives you the creeps? You disagree, I take it? lol
                                                                                                  Actually, I suspect he meant the guy you quoted, R_MAYNARD gives him the creeps.
                                                                                                  Mr. Belvedere
                                                                                                  MyCE Resident
                                                                                                  Posted on: 05 Jan 12 11:21
                                                                                                    Quote:
                                                                                                    Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                                    I don't need to prove anything to you. The issue is the pirates, not me.
                                                                                                    Yes, the issue is them. The problem is you rant a lot but don't provide any lead whatsoever on your content.

                                                                                                    I want to purchase some music from you. You can now actually make money. Where do i go to?
                                                                                                    hogger129
                                                                                                    MyCE Member
                                                                                                    Posted on: 06 Jan 12 15:08
                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by R_Maynard
                                                                                                      We're not talking about graffiti here. The pirate nerds have messed with the wrong group of people. We musicians are a mean bunch and we don't like getting ripped off. We're gonna fight back.

                                                                                                      In the last ten years the pirates have stolen the music to promote their pay per click ads and rapidshare sites.

                                                                                                      Don't tell me music isn't worth anything, because pirates don't steal worthless stuff and never have. That's why they have burried treasures. Pirating is the business model that needs to be updated. History has proven pirating to be an unsustainable business model (they usually get killed).

                                                                                                      STOP THE PIRATE NERDS NOW
                                                                                                      TAKE BACK OUR FREEDOM TO CREATE

                                                                                                      Don't be in league with pirate thieves
                                                                                                      I vote for only supporters of STOP ONLINE PIRACY
                                                                                                      We need a new internet, one that protects it's citizens from theft.
                                                                                                      You failed to see the point once again. This law goes over the top beyond its stated intent.

                                                                                                      Shutting down an entire site because of the actions of a few members is a violation of Constitutional rights. The server owners didn't do anything illegal, the people using it did. Prosecute them.

                                                                                                      The RIAA rarely even goes after people pirating music anymore because it doesn't do anything to stop it. Just like this law will do nothing.

                                                                                                      Sue the people redistributing, not the sites they use to redistribute.
                                                                                                      Mr. Belvedere
                                                                                                      MyCE Resident
                                                                                                      Posted on: 10 Jan 12 08:51
                                                                                                        And then.. it was silent....

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